Babylone and Rome

Most ™Christians™ can tell you that the Roman catholic doctrine is not a biblical doctrine.
To the non-believer, many people wear the label of 'christian'. To the followers of Christs Word, its more then a label. Its a life style.
Many haters of christianity attempt to debunk Christ by debunking the catholic church. It doesnt help your case. In fact, christians will help you show why the RCC is different then the bible.

It is easier to link the RCC and the pantheon of Rome and Babylon, then it is to link it to Christ.

The heart of this discussion is at this link. I wrote it. There is just no way to copy the page here

home.nc.rr.com...

I agree. It isn't a truth that is well received, but it is still true. The RCC does not teach salvation. And what it does teach does not lead to salvation. And so if someone truly follows and believes what it teaches they are being led to hell.

Hi jake......do you know how many of those sites you will find on the internet?
Alot!
Does that mean that they are based on the truth just because!
Anyone can at anytime go ahead and write whatever their mind tells them.....I for one can do that .........but I dont because I dont have the capabilitie to read and understand the BIBLE as it is meant to be read......

People choose the easy way out of reading easy explanetory information based on what they beleive to be ACCURATE Knowledge of the TRUTH.....

Get to the source!

Wisdom went forth to make her dwelling among the children of men, and found no dwelling place
Wisdom returned to her place, and took her seat among the angels (1 Enoch 42)

After Jerusalem had been destroyed by the Babylonians in 586BCE, refugees fled south.
The prophet Jeremiah went with them,
and told them that the disaster had been due to their sins,
and that even in Egypt, the punishment would continue.
The refugees in Pathros confronted Jeremiah and would not accept what he said.
The disaster had been caused, they said, by neglecting the Queen of Heaven.
Jeremiah 44 then offers us a glimpse of the religion of seventh century Judah - burning incense to the Queen of Heaven, pouring out libations to her and making loaves to represent her: ‘For then we had plenty of food and we prospered and saw no evil’ (Jer.44.17).

Where Shall Wisdom Be Found?
orthodoxeurope.org...
helen....

...but I dont because I dont have the capabilitie to read and understand the BIBLE as it is meant to be read...

This is what makes you different. I DO have the capability to read and understand the bible. Think for yourself.

Now, in the event that someone comes along who cant read, but knows pictures, then they can see half of the information in the pictures alone.

..." Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
Rev 1:6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. ""

See. You dont need a priest. You can read and understand because you ARE a priest. Get together with other believers and study. Where two or three are gathered......

Jake I do have the capability to read.....

But on giving explanations on my authority I cannot!
WHY?
quote//Coming upon the Ethiopian as he read the Old Testament in his chariot, Philip the Apostle asked him,

"Understandest thou what thou readest?"
And the Ethiopian answered,
"How can I, unless some man should guide me?" (Acts 8:30-31).

We are all in the position of the Ethiopian.
The words of Scripture are not always self-explanatory.
God speaks directly to the heart of each one of us as we read our Bible. Scripture reading is a personal dialogue between each one of us and Christ - but we also need guidance. And our guide is the Church.

www.orthodoxinfo.com...

Jake Christ Himself established the Church..EKKLISIA ....without it we will not get far...
quote// All who enter in the Church are members separately, but together comprise one body in Christ (cf. Rom. 12:5; 1 Cor. 12:20).

Christ Himself often referred to His Church as the Kingdom of God and said that this Kingdom is not of the world, that is, its nature is not of the world, not temporal; it is not comparable with earthly kingdoms (cf. John 14:27; 15:19; 17:14-16; 18:36).

take care..
helen...

ok helen,

this is going off topic.

YOU and other non believers are in the group with the ethiopian because you dont understand that the ethiopian had heard about christ, but never read. Now he wanted to know more.

1Ti 4:13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.

2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Now you have already shown that you do not read the bible. I do. I also understand it. Satan told you a lie , that you have to listen to a priest to tell you the bible. Now you can believe satan, and do like he says, or you can believe Gods word, and do like HE says. Its up to you.



Start a new thread with this if you want...otherwise...what do you think about the RCC removing the second commandment and then making all those graven images to bow in front of?

Hi Jake.....

Im Greek Orthodox .......and Yes I beleive in having an Icon corner in my house as a sign of respect of Heavenly things!
What is an image?
God took FLESH became MAN and an image of Him became available for all ....

Quote///Christians pray in the presence of Icons (just as Israelites prayed in the presence of Icons in the Temple), but we do not pray to the image.
3. Do Icons work miracles?

QUOTE/////To put this question in proper perspective,
let's consider a few other questions: Did the Ark of the Covenant work miracles (e.g. Joshua 3:15ff; 1st Samuel 4-6; 2nd Samuel 11-12)?
Did the Bronze Serpent heal those bitten by snakes (Numbers 21:9)?
Did the Prophet Elisha's bones raise a man from the dead (2nd Kings 13:21)? Did St. Peter's shadow heal the sick (Acts 5:15)?
Did aprons and handkerchiefs that had touched St. Paul heal the sick and caste out evil spirits (Acts 19:12)?

The answer to these questions are,
Yes,
in a manner of speaking.
Nevertheless, to be precise, it was God who chose to work miracles through these things.
In the case of the Ark and the Bronze serpent,
we have images used to work miracles.
God worked a miracle through the relics of the Prophet Elisha,
through the shadow of a Saint,
and through things that had merely touched a Saint.
Why?
Because God honors those who honor Him (1st Samuel 2:30),
and thus takes delight in working miracles through his Saints, even by these indirect means.
The fact that God can sanctify material things should come as no surprise to those familiar with Scripture.
For example,
not only was the Altar of the Temple holy,
but anything that touched it was holy as well (Exodus 29:37).
To reject the truth that God works through material things is to fall into Gnosticism.

The Icon FAQ............More below...

www.orthodoxinfo.com...

Glory Be to God..
helen...

Originally posted by helen670
but I dont because I dont have the capabilitie to read and understand the BIBLE as it is meant to be read......

God meant for us to be able to read and study the Bible and understand it. It is not a one time through it and then you know everything, but daily reading and studying, and God reveals more and more of it's truths to the person who reads it.

Also this next thing is going to be blunt but, you need to quit reading the books that say they are extra-biblical and focus on the Bible. Those other books will lead a person away from God not to Him.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by helen670
but I dont because I dont have the capabilitie to read and understand the BIBLE as it is meant to be read......

God meant for us to be able to read and study the Bible and understand it. It is not a one time through it and then you know everything, but daily reading and studying, and God reveals more and more of it's truths to the person who reads it.

Also this next thing is going to be blunt but, you need to quit reading the books that say they are extra-biblical and focus on the Bible. Those other books will lead a person away from God not to Him.

You have voted dbrandt for the Way Above Top Secret award


Some people just dont understand the simple truth. They dont get it. Jesus said to follow HIM. If you want to know who is a christian, they are the ones that keep Jesus's word. Not the popes.
Not muhammeds.
Only Jesus

I was raised a catholic, went to a catholic school, recieved my sacraments...and now do not agree with any religion at all. but one thing is the truth and the facts should always prevail. the catholic church never changed the commandments. Pick up any catholic bible and read exodus 20 and you will see they are all there plain as day. now I also read something disturbing in your link saying catholics can go party, have a night on the town and do all sorts of things and then the next day go and confess. Thats not how it works, have you ever been to confession? And if this was true it is not the only christian religion that would be like this. Look at baptists they believe as long as they accept jasus into their heart thay will go to heaven, and because of this they pretty much can do what they want. Break evey commandment and that baptist will still go to heaven without confessing.... now thats a ridiculous belief. You need to look at all the other forms of christianity and you will see there is something wrong with every one. I dont believe in religion but i sure do love history and the truth should always be told.

I forgot, what is one thing all god related raligions have in common, a god from above. A SUN god or moon god. Why because most people think of the heavens are above where the sun and moon are. I guess this could be a reason for symbols of the sun throughout all churches of all types today. And for the second commandment I guess every christian church are living in sin, that cross up there seems to be a symbol too.( idol, a shape on earth).

Originally posted by ncbrian211
I was raised a catholic, went to a catholic school, recieved my sacraments...and now do not agree with any religion at all. but one thing is the truth and the facts should always prevail. the catholic church never changed the commandments. Pick up any catholic bible and read exodus 20 and you will see they are all there plain as day. now I also read something disturbing in your link saying catholics can go party, have a night on the town and do all sorts of things and then the next day go and confess. Thats not how it works, have you ever been to confession? And if this was true it is not the only christian religion that would be like this. Look at baptists they believe as long as they accept jasus into their heart thay will go to heaven, and because of this they pretty much can do what they want. Break evey commandment and that baptist will still go to heaven without confessing.... now thats a ridiculous belief. You need to look at all the other forms of christianity and you will see there is something wrong with every one. I dont believe in religion but i sure do love history and the truth should always be told.

Truth? I was raised catholic and then found the Truth.

I have a side by side comparison of the exodus vs catholic 10.

here is some more
www.catholic.org.uk...

Do a quick google search for more.
Then explain all the images at the vatican. Try to explain all the sun images as well.

The romans are keeping the old religion alive. There are NO works you can do for salvation. You repent and follow Jesus. Thats all.
Crying out against another relion will not excuse Rome, or what they teach.
Jesus Christ said HE is the way.

Originally posted by ncbrian211
I was raised a catholic, went to a catholic school, recieved my sacraments...and now do not agree with any religion at all. but one thing is the truth and the facts should always prevail. the catholic church never changed the commandments.

If keeping the commandments saves you then no one would be saved because no one can keep them. So I agree with you on one part. Anyone from any christian denomination, that shows up at church for an hour or two on Sunday then lives like "hell" the rest of the week is destined for hell for eternity. Confession of a sin and then returning to that sin next Saturday night is not Biblical.

But neither is going to church and watching a priest "mystically" turn a wafer and wine into the actual body and blood of Christ is not Biblical either. The catholic church teaches that this is the way a person "receives" Jesus Christ. NO, that's how a person eats food and liquids. That only nourishes the body and does nothing for the spirit in a man or woman. Then the more you "receive" the wafer the less time you will spend in purgatory before you are transferred to heaven is not Biblical either.

The actual way you receive Jesus Christ is by making a decision(choice) in your soul(mind, will, emotions, intellect). You decide to give Him your sin(wrong living, actual sins, ungodly lifestyle, etc.), you then invite Him to come into your heart and life(literally) and save you. Then He does just that. He removes your past, present and future sins and your spirit is reborn. Your spirit is fed, and this transformation in your spirit overflows into your soul, where you can now make choices and decisions that are pleasing to God and benefit you. Then these choices and decisions will be lived out in your body and will change what acts your body takes part in.

Receiving Jesus Christ this way affects every fiber and cell of you, (spirit, soul and body). That's what it means when it says in the Bible the Kingdom of Heaven is within you. Being part of that kingdom begins as a spiritual decision that transforms a person from the inside out.

[edit on 23-4-2005 by dbrandt]

@jake1997
ncbrian211 is not incorrect. The Roman Catholic Church never changed the 10 Commandments in the bible.

@ncbrian211
Jake1997 is not incorrect. The Roman Catholic Church traditionally did not teach the 10 commandments in the bible.

Catechism of the RCC - 10 Commandments

@dbrandt
I am not going to defend what the Catholic Church does teach, but you don't quite got it right. Also, you I think you may have a problem with the "receive Jesus" portion of your post. I think you may find that we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and an abundance of grace, but then Jesus receives us.

[edit on 24-4-2005 by Raphael_UO]

The catholic church responded to this very conversation with both a CONFESSION and and EXCUSE.

Remember when the 10 commandments were taken away from the people of (alabama?) and their courthouse by the ACLU?

Well the TV showed a close up and catholics musta started asking questions.
Like me, many remembered being taught a different version by the rcc when they were a kid. The link provided to the vatican doesnt take you there but they do list exodus instead of the catechism version

take a look at this link
www.catholic.com...

Especially the part that goes after this
"Whereas the Catechism’s traditional presentation of the commandments for memorization are:"

They know why we are talking about it too.
Its the Graven images of the catholic church has built to honor the sungod of old.

Does any catholic remember when they recieved the sacrament of communion, did the church tell you this is god or jesus, or did it tell you to do this in rememberance of him. When you recieve this sacrament you are asked by the church if you believe, love, and accept jesus as your savior, that is the only way the church will allow you to recieve communion. This is what is salvation by any churches standard, to accept jesus as you savior. So in fact by eating the wafer does not mean your going to heaven or everything is forgiven but that you already did accept jesus into your life and you do this in rememberance of him. And yes the catholic church teaches you there own version of the commandments but the statement was that they changed them, when in fact they did not. Like I said open up any catholic bible and see for yourself. And about the baptists I belong to this church once, and in the southern states of the U.S. most believe if they accept jesus they can do as they please.... I asked one baptist preacher once, If a man who has accepted jesus into his heart goes out and murders another man will he go to heaven without having to repent for his sin?..... the answer was yes. I dont know but this does not sound like something the god of the bible would do but everyone has there own interpretation. Im not trying to say anyone is wrong I just think religion as a whole is messed up, everyone pointing fingers at the olther saying mine is right and yours is wrong.

As for the symbols of the sun, you might need to ask Michelangelo or raphael... they designed the bascillica. These were different times then and architecture and design were done in a period of time known as the renaissance. Mant elaborate buildings were created in this time using all types of symbols for decoration. And as for what is left over from the original basillica built by Constantine in 324 it is hard to find. One fact is that the footprint of the bascillica was created using part of the circus nero... so for the shape of the church, it was created in a time before christianity ever took hold in the roman empire. Which the church of today is a creation of and the one last part of that empire around today.

ncbrian

What is the catholic 9th commandment?
What is the catholic 10th commandment?

They are CHANGED.

Also, you said that because they claim Jesus, they are saved, but Jesus says

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

So, you are wrong. Why? Because to make up for your sin you pray to the sex goddess madonna. You also say prayers to God beside her.
Read 2king22 and 23 and see Israel doing the exact same thing.

Saying prayers over and over does not make up for sin. That is a slap in the face of CHrist.
Catholic doctrine also teaches that jews and muslims goto heaven because they know the god of abraham. JP2 made that infallible call.
The bible says that anyone who denys Christ is the Son of God is going to hell. Catholic doctrine again.

Back to the commandments...
We are under grace...but that is for forgiveness of sins. This does not mean we can break the second commandment and make images everywhere and keep them and bow down in front of them like catholic doctrine teaches...and like catholics do.
If we can do that, the we can murder every day. We can have orgies every day. We can steal every day.
Thats right...those images are just as bad as any of those other commandments that Jesus summed up into 2.

The imagry of the RCC tells the story. Take a long look at the link.

I was catholic...and it took 4 years for it to sink in...but it didnt start until I started reading the bible. Look for yourself.

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
Also, you I think you may have a problem with the "receive Jesus" portion of your post. I think you may find that we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and an abundance of grace, but then Jesus receives us.

[edit on 24-4-2005 by Raphael_UO]

I am guessing you are talking about the priest changing the wafer and wine into the actual/literal body and of Christ. If it is ,I don't have it wrong and if that is what you are talking about you need to do some searching of a bunch of sources to find out that this is what they think they are doing when the priest deals with the elements. The Holy Sprit comes after receiving Christ as Savior not the other way around.

Our past, present and future sins are forgiven by what Christ alone has done.

And for anyone who reads these or ohter posts dealing with the deception in the catholic church, I want people to know the truth of how to be saved and live eternally with God and not be seperated in hell forever. Some people like to fight just to fight and argue just to argue.

My sole intent is for people to know the truth so that hopefully they will come to Christ alone for remission of their sin. I HATE lies!!!!!!!!!!!!

[edit on 24-4-2005 by dbrandt]

jake 1997....... I understand what you are trying to say but one thing is I dont do anything with any god because I believe it all is a hoax, I am just telling you what I learned after 18 years in a catholic school when I was a child. i just think people need to look beyond what they read or hear from others because the world is filled with different ideas for every church. But I do believe you should sit down with a catholic preist and learn a little more about the beliefs of catholics. I might not believe in a god by my family around me do and I listen to them every day.

Also if your worried about other gods(paegan gods) in the catholic church you might just want to look at the world around you because it is changing in their favor today. More and more paegan beliefs are becoming ok in the world. And once a week you pay tribute to one paegan god and probably dont know it. So why worry, its all gonna end one day anyway.

jake1997....i could not make sense out of one link, you were saying one thing about the catholics having the wrong commandments, but the writer of the article believes that Deuteronomy 5 should be used as what the catholic church believes. This argument has been going on for centuries and probably will keep on going... but neither one is wrong since both are supposedly the word of god.

[edit on 24-4-2005 by ncbrian211]