Skeptics say none of it is real

I don't know how many skeptics we have on this board but ever since I became involved in the alien/UFO conspiracy I have noticed one thing. No one can prove that any of it is truly real. Regardless of all the reports on sightings, abductions and crop circles no one can prove anything. I believe it to be real because too many people have come forward and told their own story about what they've seen, witnessed or experienced. What am I talking about? Aliens visiting Earth. So for those who don't believe am I to believe:

1. That all alien abductions are hoaxes or illusions?
2. All UFO sighting are hoaxes, illusions or something that can be explained?
3. All witnesses who have come forward: Civilian, Military and Government are lying or crazy? (Hmmm... That's ALOT of people)

What I guess I'm saying is why isn't any of this possible, logical or reasonable? Yes, the government hasn't said a word about any of this. I guess it isn't that important or is there something the government is hiding? Remember most Americans wouldn't be frightened if we were really being visited.

So what really is going on? Why don't we know? Why won't the government investigate since it has become a world wide phenomeno? Why are independant researchers very interested in the subject? Why are people like Steven Greer and Robert O. Dean trying to bring the information they have to the American people and the U.S. government?

I say the universe is just too vast for other life forms not too be around.

But I am skeptical, we just have to wait and see.

Yes, you've got a good point, but there's a few things to think about. "Seeing is believing" and a large portion of the world hasn't "seen." There have been a lot of hoaxes, and the people TEND to be viewed as extreme by those not seeing (they've got their eyes elsewhere?). There's a subconscious Occam's Razor. It's a lot easier to go on working and shopping and whatever-ing and deny aliens than it is to think about it, look for them, research it, anything. People are very often living in the present, which has plenty of side effects, the least of which being they don't often find aliens.

Of course, there's no reason to believe either side unless you've got reason for your self. Most people don't like hearsay, and would rather be abducted or see a UFO themselves.

Hoaxes, misinformation etc aside, enough people have seen something to suggest something is going on. The question we should be asking is what that something is.
Aliens?
There are other theories about what phenomona underpins the UFO enigma other than the alien hypothosis, including interdimensional, the psychic and a combination of all three, perhaps even the open minded need to be a tad more open minded.

Originally posted by Amorymeltzer
Yes, you've got a good point, but there's a few things to think about. "Seeing is believing" and a large portion of the world hasn't "seen."

That's very true. As they say "Truth is in the eyes of the beholder."

By mrmulder
What I guess I'm saying is why isn't any of this possible, logical or reasonable?

The answer to that is the Fermi Paradox. You should read up on it. It is quite interesting.

I myself have seen a few things I cant explain, and I dont rule anything out. But..... Fermi has an excellent point. Such an excellent point that nobody has been able to resolve it.

Many great scientists have developed theories to resolve the paradox, but none have been acceptable yet.

Perhaps you will be the one someday? That would be cool. I can see the headlines now. ATS'er solves Fermi's Paradox

The main issue is not the lack of proofs but rather the fact that there are many people on this planet that will just refuse to believe in anything that's in front of their eyes just because it does'nt go with their system of beliefs.

That's the reason why you can show undeniable proofs of the existence of the UFO phenomenon to some skeptics, and they will still stick to their belief that there's nothing out there and that aliens cannot have come to Earth.

Originally posted by Amorymeltzer
Yes, you've got a good point, but there's a few things to think about. "Seeing is believing" and a large portion of the world hasn't "seen."

Amory makes a good point, that I'll support in this direction. I have seen something. I'm an educated person, and I know that what I saw cannot be explained in terms of any aeronautical capabilities we publically know of now. (And this was 1994, so even more so then.) What happened to me after I saw what I saw was not that I was 100% convinced I had seen extraterrestrial-based spacecraft, but that I was 100% convinced that I had seen something that, even in the more knowledgable circles of aeronautical capabilities, I knew was not achievable at the time.

In other words, I don't know what I saw. I know, based on what I am knowledgable of in human flight, that it was not human flight. I am not ready to say I saw ET's flying about, but I am 100% sure that if somebody tries to walk up to me and say I saw Venus or a weather balloon...well, I'd punch them in the nose. I think it is the sympathy to the fact that the ridiculous explanations that absolutely won't fit with what a person has seen causing extreme aggravation and feelings of disrespect that is what I gained from what I saw.

Once you know you have seen something that can't currently be explained...there's not much getting over that. And silly explanations from detached groups probably make it much worse.

[edit on 4-22-2005 by Valhall]

Yes, I feel your right. That's why a secret group w/choppers are going to secure one down craft.

Of course the main media will be invited at that time..

Dallas

Originally posted by Echtelion
The main issue is not the lack of proofs but rather the fact that there are many people on this planet that will just refuse to believe in anything that's in front of their eyes just because it does'nt go with their system of beliefs.

That's the reason why you can show undeniable proofs of the existence of the UFO phenomenon to some skeptics, and they will still stick to their belief that there's nothing out there and that aliens cannot have come to Earth.

Well Bro... There is no proof that any of the above exists... For better or worse, saying it doesn't make it so... It's not a matter of "refusing" to believe anything, it is more a matter of not being gullible enough to fall for everything.

Of course skeptics say none of it is real. They are skeptic.

In my opinion, there is something going on regarding ETs and UFOs. I think this because there is no Official Branch of any Government that I know of that investigates UFOs or other extra terrestrial phenomena.

I think that we don't know because this issue does not directly affect us. If it (Aliens and UFOs) did, I'm sure we would have an Official branch of Government that deals with the issue.

It must already be in the process of being investigated, just not publically known to you and I. There is probably some "hidden" element of the Government which handles the issue.

We might already be affected by this issue and we just don't know it yet.

mrmulder:
1. That all alien abductions are hoaxes or illusions?
2. All UFO sighting are hoaxes, illusions or something that can be explained?
3. All witnesses who have come forward: Civilian, Military and Government are lying or crazy? (Hmmm... That's ALOT of people)

Certainly many of the people that come forward with tales of alien abduction/sightings either mistook what they saw, lied about it, or took too many drugs beforehand. But, not all cases can be explained away like that, although I think most can. I think it is within the realm of possibility that there are aliens visiting us, but with what knowledge we have so far, we can't say 100% one way or the other.

My feeling (as I posted in another thread called something like "Skeptic asks why do you believe aliens are visiting earth") is that aliens almost certainly exist in the universe, but that I personally feel they haven't been to earth (yet). I could be wrong, however; I don't have all the answers. There are enough incidents that seem to indicate SOMETHING is going on, although whether it is aliens or top secret government projects or mind control or something else, who knows. I tend to be extremely skeptical of anything without hard evidence, and in the field of ufology there is nothing beyond the circumstantial.

Going along with the Occam's razor thing Amorymeltzer mentioned; the occam's razor principle basically says that you go with the simplest possibility when you don't have all the information, since the simplest explanation has the highest probability of being correct. It's no guarantee, however. It's like the people who build nuclear bunkers in their back yard; Occam's razor would say that it's a waste of time, since they almost certainly won't need them, but you never know, you could be surprised, and the guy in the bunker will be laughing at all the rest of us.

Maybe the aliens are really here. Maybe they're not. I personally would think it was awesome if we were visited by some aliens, provided they were benevolent. I hope someday I'll get to meet aliens, but then, I also hope someday I'll win the lottery. I don't hold out much hope for either, but both are possible.

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
It's no guarantee, however. It's like the people who build nuclear bunkers in their back yard; Occam's razor would say that it's a waste of time, since they almost certainly won't need them, but you never know, you could be surprised, and the guy in the bunker will be laughing at all the rest of us.

Occam's Razor doesn't account for a large portion of human idiocy. Although, I'm pretty sure those people see building a bunker as a lot easier than dying when the nuclear holocaust comes. What's "easier" for them is just taken in a different frame of reference/planet.

To all those skeptics see this disclosure project interview and then arque
www.netro.ca...

I don't give a flippitty flop what skeptic say or think. If you were to ask people who know me well to describe me.....part of what they would list on the positive side would be:
Responsible, reliable, honest, loyal, truthful.......
Skeptics can "think" whatever they want. They base it on nothing other than their thought process. I "know" what I know from actual experiance.

Need I remind you guys of the Drake Equation?

The Drake equation (also known as the Green Bank equation) is a famous result in the speculative fields of xenobiology, astrosociobiology and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence.

This equation was devised by Dr. Frank Drake in the 1960s in an attempt to estimate the number of extraterrestrial civilizations in our galaxy with which we might come in contact. The main purpose of the equation is to allow scientists to quantify the uncertainty of the factors which determine the number of extraterrestrial civilizations.


where:

N is the number of extraterrestrial civilizations in our galaxy with which we might expect to be able to communicate
and

R* is the rate of star formation in our galaxy
fp is the fraction of those stars which have planets
ne is average number of planets which can potentially support life per star that has planets
fl is the fraction of the above which actually go on to develop life
fi is the fraction of the above which actually go on to develop intelligent life
fc is the fraction of the above which are willing and able to communicate
L is the expected lifetime of such a civilization
en.wikipedia.org...

And for all you skeptics out there, the Fermi Paradox...

The Fermi paradox is a paradox proposed by physicist Enrico Fermi that questions the probability of finding intelligent extraterrestrial life. More specifically, it deals with attempts to answer one of the most profound questions of all time: "Are we (human beings) the only technologically advanced civilization in the Universe?". The paradox was formulated in response to the Drake equation for estimating the number of extraterrestrial civilizations with which we might come in contact. Subject to the values inserted into this formula, the Drake equation seems to imply that we should not expect such contact to be extremely rare.

Fermi questioned this conclusion. He asked that if there were a multitude of advanced extraterrestrial civilizations in our galaxy, the Milky Way, then, "Where are they? Why haven't we seen any traces of intelligent extraterrestrial life, such as probes, spacecraft or transmissions?". Those who adhere to the premise behind the Fermi paradox often refer to that premise as the Fermi principle.

The paradox can therefore be summed up as follows: The commonly held belief that the universe has many technologically advanced civilizations, combined with our observations that suggest otherwise, is paradoxical, suggesting that either our understanding or our observations are flawed or incomplete.
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by mrmulder
Remember most Americans wouldn't be frightened if we were really being visited.

Are you so sure of this? It is easy to say that you wouldn't be frightened when you don't know with 100% certainty if they are here, or have been here, or might come back here.

I tell you now, I would be scared #less. For myself yes, but more so for my family - I have young children and I have a great fear for their future already, becuase it is a future of uncertainty - now add space aliens to the equation and my fears would most likely become terror. I like to think of myself as an average joe and I think there would be at least a few billion other terrified average joes out there as well. Things get dangerous when lots of terrified people get together.. .

For example look at the fear and hatred we express towards our OWN race that happens to think differently, follow a different religion, etc, etc. Now can you imagine this xenophobia magnified by a few orders of magnitude? This is what you would see if full government disclosure becomes apparent. I know you see your fair share of loonies around here saying that the "aliens" talk to them and say that the mean the best for us, yadda, yadda - but you must realise this is only a small minority - most people wouldn't want a bar of it...

If you are a person that says they wouldn't be afraid if it became an irrifutible truth that aliens exist and know about us. I would say that you are either lying or insane.

Sorry for focusing on that one part of your post...

1. That all alien abductions are hoaxes or illusions?
2. All UFO sighting are hoaxes, illusions or something that can be explained?
3. All witnesses who have come forward: Civilian, Military and Government are lying or crazy? (Hmmm... That's ALOT of people)

I hope for mysake and yours that the above is true.



[edit on 23-4-2005 by KiwiDave]

why isn't any of this possible, logical or reasonable?

When looking at the evidence, it becomes extremely possible, logical, and reasonable. Unfortunately, due to the ridicule factor surrounding the subject, thanks to some of the nutjob accounts, we've got a scenario of a few bad apples ruining the whole bunch.

Yes, the government hasn't said a word about any of this.

Oh but they have. Problem is, they contradict themselves. For example, in Roswell they said they had captured a flying disc, press report right from the base commander (Blanchard). They (General Twining) also said it was no aerial test they were conducting. Yet, then they say, oh...wait a minute, yeah, it was a test, and the bodies? Well, those were from these tests we did 5 years later..yeah thats it! That's the ticket! Other examples include the '42 LA incident, where they said the gunners were shooting at enemy planes, and then phantoms, and then well....they didn't know! Or the DC flap of '52. Even commissioned a lengthy report to explain their idea of temperature inversions, only to then take it back, leaving the case as "unexplained" in Bluebook. Speaking of Bluebook, many former project members (like Hynek and Ruppelt) have come forward saying it was a PR coverup.

I guess it isn't that important or is there something the government is hiding? Remember most Americans wouldn't be frightened if we were really being visited.

Well, that all depends on their motives, and our capabilities if hostilities broke out.


So what really is going on? Why don't we know? Why won't the government investigate since it has become a world wide phenomenon?

They've already stated in numerous documents that they believe the threat to be real. (of course, they've also stated it isn't, hehe...just more contradiction). So, we have to logically assume that they either have some of their answers, and/or they are still investigating, though in secret. There are numerous authentic documents suggesting an ongoing investigation, despite the public stance that this ended with Bluebook. A simple perusal of the FOIA reading room (CIA especially) will confirm this. The problem is, they don't really want the public at large to know, but interestingly enough, the info is readily available to those who want to know.

Why are independant researchers very interested in the subject? Why are people like Steven Greer and Robert O. Dean trying to bring the information they have to the American people and the U.S. government?

Because the evidence is so overwhelming, and because the government has constantly been caught with it's pants down in the coverup efforts. It represents what is most likely the most important discovery of our time, Sentient extra-terrestrial life...certainly a topic worthy of someone's time...

Well, I’m about as skeptical as anyone else here, and I think I have a good reason for my skepticism, just as a True Believer thinks he has good reason for his belief.

I think the best argument for my belief is that posed by Fox Mulder: “ No one can prove that any of it is truly real.”

Skeptics like proof. A true skeptic is as skeptical as outride rejection as he is of outright acceptance, but he also realizes that the burden of evidence is on the person that’s postulating a belief as fact. And the more extraordinary the assertion is, the more extraordinary the evidence has to be.

Let me give you an example:

My first assertion that I offer is ”My car is a silver 2005 Scion tC with Arizona license plate MRTND28”

My second assertion is ”I am absconded on a regular basis by the Little Purple Men from Arcturus”.

I don’t think anyone here has any corroboration for either of those two statements. I mean, you’ve never seen me behind the wheel of a silver Scion tC, nor have you watched me be absconded by the LPMFA.

Chances are, though, you’d tend to believe the first over the last, because it’s much more likely that I’d have a Scion tC than I would be cruising with my absconders in an Arcturian spaceship. As a matter of fact, if someone were to ask you what kind of car I had, some of you would say it was a Scion tC because they bought into my assertion.

The more unlikely your assertions are, the less likely that most people will believe them.

Now, Fox Mulder asks a lot of questions, like:

” So for those who don't believe am I to believe:

1. That all alien abductions are hoaxes or illusions?
2. All UFO sighting are hoaxes, illusions or something that can be explained?
3. All witnesses who have come forward: Civilian, Military and Government are lying or crazy? (Hmmm... That's ALOT of people)”

The answer, of course, is that you may believe whatever you choose. I believe that both 1. and 2., as you have outlined them, are correct, and I also believe that 3. is mostly correct except that I would add “mistaken” to “lying” or “crazy”.

The rest of your questions are rhetorical ones, but I’ll give my take on them, anyway.

“So what really is going on?” Probably nothing.

“Why don't we know?” I think, subconsciously, you do know; you just don’t want to accept it because flying saucer conspiracies are fun and give some meaning to your life. (By the way, don’t take that as in insult; a belief in God gives great meaning to my life, and I have no proof for His existence, either.)

“Why won't the government investigate since it has become a world wide phenomeno?” If I recall they did, and didn’t seem to find any evidence they’re willing to share.

“Why are independant researchers very interested in the subject?” For the same reason you are; see above.

“Why are people like Steven Greer and Robert O. Dean trying to bring the information they have to the American people and the U.S. government?” I don’t know either of those people. My guess, though, is that they’re mistaken or looking for some sort of publicity-rush by hoaxing. But again, I can’t see into peoples’ minds, any more than you can.

ubermunche says:

” Hoaxes, misinformation etc aside, enough people have seen something to suggest something is going on. The question we should be asking is what that something is.”

Good plan, ubermunche. But if you don’t have any evidence, all you can do is conjecture. And while conjecture may be a fun thing to do while you’re sitting around the fire in the study or in front of your computer, it’s not going to give you any answers. You know that. So why not come up with evidence?

Fox Mulder says:

” That's very true. As they say "Truth is in the eyes of the beholder."

Rubbish!

It’s “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”. You can “behold” that one plus one is seventeen or that persistent contrails are a Secret Plot until the cows come home, and it still won’t make it true. Your statement is a copout, Fox Mulder, pure and simple; and it’s thought processes like that which don’t deny ignorance, but sustain it.

Echtelion says:

"That's the reason why you can show undeniable proofs of the existence of the UFO phenomenon to some skeptics..."

You have "undeniable proofs"? Let's see them!