Can we be certain that Jesus Christ was born on December 25th?

There is a way to tell. and he wasnt. My dad went through it with me years ago. He was evidently born on September 11th, and now the bombing date has a reason

a reply to: TheGoodNews

No we cannot be sure.
There is a belief that Jesus was born September 11th, and this is the real reason that day was picked to kill thousands over 20 years ago.
The perpetrators, being anti-Christianity, made September 11th a day of mourning, a delusion Satan would be proud of.

a reply to: BeyondKnowledge3

Who is able to speak about God to others...
Each must figure it out on their own.

I happen to be a polytheist. Each person who holds the idea of "one and only one god" in mind has unique thoughts about that "one", therefore there are many gods. Each person may debate and compare their god with others.

If you can't see the work of God in yourself, a forest or just a blade of grass, what help is a religon to you?

Is that a rhetorical question?

The OP brought up Romans 1:25. In context.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,g in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

-Romans 1 ESV-

This brings up a rather new, 1993, argument that atheists have, called The argument from reasonable nonbelief (or the argument from divine hiddenness).

I found something amiss in the argument. It is posited by theists that God is omnibenevolent. There is no omnibenevolence evident in the World. Even this passage speaks of the "wrath of God". How does the Apostle Paul reconcile? He doesn't believe in omnibenevolence. Easy peasy!

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

- Romans 9 ESV -

So if, by chance, someone fails to recognize the Bible God of Paul, as an actual being, responsible for the creation of all things, well, that's just part of the plan.

It's like when Jesus said, "the poor you will always have with you." Paul could just as easily say "Atheists, heathens, pagans, gays, lesbians, idolaters, and etc. you shall always have with you."

But to quote Ron Reagan "lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell."

Some group actually did some investigations of the evidence and summized because of some things written about it in the bible and historical texts they have found that they estimate his birth between September fifteenth and october twentieth approximately.

Another study comparing records evaluated his birth year, they estimated it as three years off, but I do not remember which way it was...Three BC or Three AD. I am thinking it was three BC that he was born, but am not sure...it was a long time ago I read that and I just remember positively it was around three years off.

I guess it evaluated multiple things plus during the dark ages, some of the record keeping has gaps in it, seems like the whole years got messed up they thought, spaces between the years are missing I guess. With plagues and other disasters and wars, things got messed up I guess. But maybe three missing years of record keeping in two thousand years is really not that bad I suppose.

I remember one of these two things being done by a big church, and the other was done by some historian research group, but can't remember which applied to which group anymore

a reply to: FullHeathen

Your post was a good read.

I do believe in a creator, God if you will. I do believe you should believe as you wish. I don't believe in any organized religion. If you follow a certain belief system, that is fine. I have a problem with those that think the Bible or other religious book is a operating manual for life. I have a big problem with those that want to kill others that don't believe the way they do.

I know and am friends with most major religions and even wikens. We get. Along just fine. Even discussing religious beliefs. But then, none of us are extremists. Some people take religion too far.

Now back to the Christmas question. It is just a time set to celebrate a person that may have existed, that personifies the idea of being nice to eachother and help out those in need where you can. The exact day, date, etc..does not really matter. It is the idea that is important.

The Bible gives no exact date for His birth, so why celebrate on a date tied to pagan traditions?

Going with Occam here, if one desires to spread a new belief system or move a small cult into the status of a ''real religion'' a simple way to help that along is to piggyback it into the traditions of established belief systems. Turn those old holidays into your holidays. Turn those childish symbols into your new and improved symbols making it easier to fool the children. The children grow up and there we have it, a new generation sold on the new paradigm.

a reply to: theatreboy

Ahh! The old favourites Josephus! A reality check the Josephus paragraph about Jesus does not appear until the beginning of the fourth century, at the time of Constantine.

Then Tacitus! A recent Ultraviolet photo of a critical word from the earliest known extant manuscript of Tacitus (second Medicean, Laurentian library, Italy).
reveals that the word purportedly used by Tacitus in Annals 15.44, chrestianos (“the good”), has been overwritten as christianos (“the Christians”) by a later hand, a deceit which explains the excessive space between the letters and the exaggerated “dot” (dash) above the new “i”. The entire “torched Christians” passage of Tacitus is a fake.

Pliny the Younger (61-115 AD)
Around 112 AD, in correspondence between Emperor Trajan and the provincial governor of Pontus/Bithynia, Pliny the Younger, reference is made to Christians for the first time. Pliny famously reports to his emperor:
It’s a bit like saying because some believes in the Loch Ness monster then it must exist

As for the rest you quote none lived at the time of JC you might as well use the pope as evidence.

a reply to: Radchad

We don’t know anything about God but if he/it exists it is not found in the bible. If anything we find in the bible many different Gods contending with Yahweh for control of territories available in a given geographical area. All of these gods possessed advanced technological means and personal characteristics that all ancient peoples, including the nation of Israel, describe from their own point of view.

a reply to: BeyondKnowledge3

Now back to the Christmas question. It is just a time set to celebrate a person that may have existed, that personifies the idea of being nice to eachother and help out those in need where you can. The exact day, date, etc..does not really matter. It is the idea that is important.

I think that I have learned the hard way that it is irrational to ignore verifiable facts in favor of dogma from organized religion. Solstice is verifiable fact. Humans verified it a very long time ago, evidenced by Stonehenge and other artifacts.

Just this Christmas season, after the Magdeburg vehicle murders, I learned of a Christian ritual called "Blue Christmas". Blue Christmas is on the Solstice night. Christians remember their dead on that night with blue candles.

No-one owns the Solstice. No-one owns the season. Blue Christmas is real. Human mortality is real. Mourning lose is real. December 25 is just a date on a calendar. I would never say that Christians can't celebrate Blue Christmas. They can call the Solstice whatever they want to. Vocabulary is quite often arbitrarily assigned.

------
Thank you. I have wanted to mention Blue Christmas for a couple of days now. Now seemed a good time.


I looked over many church liturgies for a decent song. They seemed too doctrinal to me. Finally, I thought: How about a song after the vigil, like sunrise. Here's one that even a general purpose theist might sing along with:
Morning Has Broken

a reply to: FullHeathen
That song was written to Allah, one of the false gods by Cat Stevens

a reply to: visitedbythem

No.

"Morning Has Broken" is a Christian hymn first published in 1931. It has words by English author Eleanor Farjeon and was inspired by the village of Alfriston in East Sussex, then set to a traditional Scottish Gaelic tune, "Bunessan".
en.wikipedia.org...

Cat Stevens (Steven Demetre Georgiou) was born in 1948. He covered the song in 1971. He converted to Islam Dec. 1977.

a reply to: TheGoodNews

WELL,..........
anything to get us to remember, and celebrate JESUS
cant be all that bad,,,

but, now that its all about SALES and RECIEVEING presents
might as well be worshippin pagans

From what I've read, most scholars believe Jesus was born in the early spring, March-April, based on Biblical clues. Things like what the shepherds were doing at the time, stuff like that. December 25 was chosen to coincide with the Feast of Mithras or something like that, so pagans didn't think they were getting their old holiday stolen from them. I suppose there is a 1/365 chance it's correct though.

a reply to: DragonsDemesne

I take it you’re talking about religious scholars? Because scholars in ancient history in particular ancient Roman history will confirm the evidence of all the main characters in the region of Palestine 2000 years ago with the exception of 1 guess who? JC There is no evidence from the time to prove his existence.

originally posted by: theatreboy
a reply to: crayzeed

aleteia.org...

Your link is good but does not include letters between Pilate and an irate Caesar who was not happy with Pilate for not sending the 'great healer' to Rome where he could attend Caesar's ailments.

a reply to: TheGoodNews

The September birth already mentioned in your Thread is thought to be about planetary conjunction and the 'star rising in the East' that was prophesied to herald the birth of the Messiah.

Nowadays and in the modern era, planetary conjunctions are not given esoteric credence as they were by the ancients.

The December date chosen was based on the Roman method of allowing the people to keep their traditions whilst bending them to the establishment's chosen acceptable belief system. The church of Rome adopted this pagan method of population and cultural control. Paganism does not mean devil worship and whilst some pagans today are also atheists, an Earth and nature or creation based belief system is not anti creator. The Solstice was not a celebration of darkness or an ode to the devil. It was and is, a celebration of the light to come and a time of nourishment when the preserved harvest was feasted.

The decorating of a tree is nothing of concern. Trees are innocent. They just do their job of providing shelter, food, oxygen and firewood. They did not choose to be used for torture and death.