I thought Trump was the existential threat?

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: xuenchen
They never did understand or even know the true reasons for that war (or why Obama allowed Crimea to go back into Russian hands). 🍌

It'll be a good discussion if anybody ever decides to start. 😀

You seem to think they are/were both under US control.

And it seems that many have forgotten that Russia is the aggressor, they attacked Ukraine when Ukraine was not attacking Russia.

No, they were overthrown by Obama and they installed their stilletto sporting puppet that's wholly beholden to western intelligence agencies. US IS UNDER CONTROL, doesn't matter the crap your shovelling, most of us can read, hear and see. WHY in the hell would any nation with nuclear weapons want to have a spook controlled, rogue regime maniacally pushing for nukes. etc. butted up to their border? Why even call it Ukraine? They're about as sovereign as Hong Kong.

originally posted by: fringeofthefringe

Thousands of nuclear arms had been left on Ukrainian soil by Moscow after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. But in the years that followed, Ukraine made the decision to completely denuclearize.

In exchange, the U.S., the U.K. and Russia would guarantee Ukraine's security in a 1994 agreement known as the Budapest Memorandum.

source is soon to be defunded

Ukraine became a deep state cesspool.

The Pentagon said on Thursday that it has operated 46 biolabs in Ukraine handling dangerous pathogens, after previously dismissing the charges as Russian propaganda.

some here seem to be unaware of this

Let's just send more weapons, pay government salaries and money to buy munitions. What could go wrong?

Yes, Ukraine did have corruption problems. But it seems that they also have been sorting them out through their legal system, a process which has been impeded because they were attacked, unprovoked, by one of their former allies.

Ukraine was also the breadbasket of Europe, and a sovereign nation, that was not attacking anyone else.

And as for the laboratories, that is where science is done and the reason it is funded is because scientific laboratories make discoveries, that justify their cost (and they also usually make money for their investors). In a country that is a food source for most of Europe, it makes sense to have biological laboratories that can regulate and improve crop and livestock output.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Dalamax

You wish to see the likes of Iran or North Korea with functional modern Nukes Dalamax?

That's like giving a child a box of matches and a can of paraffin to play with by my guess.

Sounds like a bad idea by my guess.

Much worse: giving nukes to unstable Ukrainian regime in the middle of an armed conflict is a recipe for nuclear war.
Biden (meaning, his handlers in the shadows) seems obsessed with destoying the West out of spite before he leaves office.

Ukraine had nukes way before Zelinsky was in charge.

Giving them nukes now is like sending them money, the only difference being instead of mrs Z buying luxury items in foreign countries mr Z will be throwing sh!t at a fan.

If a countermeasure to that escalation is proliferation than so be it.

A well armed world is a safe world.

a reply to: andy06shake

a reply to: andy06shake

They had the 3rd largest for a very short period of time...before that and the bulk of the time those weapons existed they were owned by the USSR. Do you know why it was so important to get those nuclear weapons out of Ukraine...? Its because they were so corrupt they were selling off anything not nailed down on the black market and everyone with any sense saw the issue there. Haven't you seen lord of war...thats ukraine he was visiting for tanks and helos in the movie.

a reply to: chr0naut

No comment! What's the use? Only God can open the eyes of the blind.

I can't imagine a better Sec. of Defense than Peter Hegseth. The MIC will be ecstatic to work with him....lol

originally posted by: VariedcodeSole

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: xuenchen
They never did understand or even know the true reasons for that war (or why Obama allowed Crimea to go back into Russian hands). 🍌

It'll be a good discussion if anybody ever decides to start. 😀

You seem to think they are/were both under US control.

And it seems that many have forgotten that Russia is the aggressor, they attacked Ukraine when Ukraine was not attacking Russia.

No, they were overthrown by Obama and they installed their stilletto sporting puppet that's wholly beholden to western intelligence agencies.

Ukraine gained independence in 1991 after the USSR ended, at that time, Barack Obama was a 30 year old US Senator for Ilinois.

US IS UNDER CONTROL

Wut?

, doesn't matter the crap your shovelling, most of us can read, hear and see. WHY in the hell would any nation with nuclear weapons want to have a spook controlled, rogue regime maniacally pushing for nukes. etc. butted up to their border?

I'm fairly sure that nations cannot determine which other nations are along their borders. It's just the way things are laid out on the surface of the planet.

Why even call it Ukraine? They're about as sovereign as Hong Kong.

The name Ukraine was first documented in the Kievan Chronicle in 1187. The Zaporozhian Cossacks would increasingly refer to this territory as "Ukraine" between 1649 and 1667. Ukraine was the informal name of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic within the Soviet Union.

Etymologically, Ukraine has been assumed in the distant past to have meant "borderlands"

Name of Ukraine

There is more than a millennia of history of the area being referred to as Ukraine.

a reply to: chr0naut

And as for the laboratories, that is where science is done and the reason it is funded is because scientific laboratories make discoveries, that justify their cost (and they also usually make money for their investors). In a country that is a food source for most of Europe, it makes sense to have biological laboratories that can regulate and improve crop and livestock output.

The pentagon runs bio-labs for the good of humanity!?! The very fact those labs were at the food source of Europe should raise all sorts of questions. We should be happy the US military via the pentagon was running those labs and making a profit? You really should proof read before you post. Your response makes no sense what so ever in the context of the discussion.

Ukraine gained independence in 1991 after the USSR ended, at that time, Barack Obama was a 30 year old US Senator for Iowa.

a reply to: chr0naut

You're clueless. You disagree for the sake of being disagreeable. Barry-30 year old senator for Iowa?

Here is a interesting Video

The Background to the Russia-Ukraine War with Scott Horton


TIME STAMP

00:04:04: Introductions
00:06:57: Have there ever been any just wars?
00:11:59: How World War II came about
00:27:16: Poor decision-making in the build-up to the Ukraine conflict
00:39:48: Why the US wants the war
00:49:17: The Chicken Kiev Speech
00:55:47: Provoking Russia, and NATO expansion
01:19:36: Clinton's engagement with Russia
01:27:04: Bush, Putin and the arms race
01:32:00: The colour-coded revolutions
01:36:26: Georgia, Russia and South Ossetia
01:41:19: Barrack Obama and the Syrian War
01:48:33: Biden, Yanukovych and the EU deal
01:55:59: Trump and Russiagate
01:59:32: Biden's refusal to reinstate key treaties
02:05:17: Final comments

originally posted by: hangedman13
a reply to: chr0naut

And as for the laboratories, that is where science is done and the reason it is funded is because scientific laboratories make discoveries, that justify their cost (and they also usually make money for their investors). In a country that is a food source for most of Europe, it makes sense to have biological laboratories that can regulate and improve crop and livestock output.

The pentagon runs bio-labs for the good of humanity!?! The very fact those labs were at the food source of Europe should raise all sorts of questions. We should be happy the US military via the pentagon was running those labs and making a profit? You really should proof read before you post. Your response makes no sense what so ever in the context of the discussion.

Biolog ical Threat Reduction Program

These were laboratories set up by the Soviets. The Pentagon were just ensuring that they weren't producing bioweapons. You should read further afield than Kremlin propaganda.

a reply to: chr0naut

And you should realize that the true purpose would not be something they would trumpet to news sources! A little wink and nod because misdirection is a thing. The fact you believe it could be no other way is funny. Mind you the sterling track record of US bio research leaves no doubt they are being honest.

a reply to: andy06shake

Add Ukraine to your list of children who MUST not get nukes.

originally posted by: fringeofthefringe

Ukraine gained independence in 1991 after the USSR ended, at that time, Barack Obama was a 30 year old US Senator for Iowa.

a reply to: chr0naut

You're clueless. You disagree for the sake of being disagreeable. Barry-30 year old senator for Iowa?

Oops, I was wrong, he was a 30yo senator for Illinois, not Iowa in 1991.

Apologies.

originally posted by: hangedman13
a reply to: chr0naut

And you should realize that the true purpose would not be something they would trumpet to news sources! A little wink and nod because misdirection is a thing. The fact you believe it could be no other way is funny. Mind you the sterling track record of US bio research leaves no doubt they are being honest.

You seem to be ignoring that it was done under a project called the "Biological Threat Reduction Program" done by the "Defense Threat Reduction Agency" of the Pentagon.

The Soviets were alleged to have been researching bioweapons, despite the international agreements they had signed.

There were entire towns that disappeared from the map after Soviet bioweapon accidents. The US knew this also because they were doing the same thing at places like Fort Detrick (the probable source for the weaponized Amerithrax letters in the 1970's).

Also, WMD's laying around in former Soviet states were increasingly appearing on the black markets around the world, and so there needed to be programmes to locate and secure them.

So the Soviet bioweapons labs were a real and present threat to international security. It makes sense to ensure that labs in former Soviet states were not full of bioweapons.

Soviet biological weapons program

(As an aside, I was privy to a report to President George H. W. Bush back in the mid 90's about Soviet weapons grade uranium that was intended to be sold on the black market in Rome, before the seller was arrested, and the material impounded by the US military).

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: fringeofthefringe

Ukraine gained independence in 1991 after the USSR ended, at that time, Barack Obama was a 30 year old US Senator for Iowa.

a reply to: chr0naut

You're clueless. You disagree for the sake of being disagreeable. Barry-30 year old senator for Iowa?

Oops, I was wrong, he was a 30yo senator for Illinois, not Iowa in 1991.

Apologies.

And even after a few tries, you still got it wrong. WHAT is your point with all the BS ???? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

a reply to: chr0naut

Ukraine is a total cesspool that knows no bounds.

Not long ago, Ukraine’s state-run natural-gas company was considered a monopolistic cesspool of corruption, “the poster child of inefficient and nontransparent state monopolies bearing high credit risks,” as one think-tank report put it in 2010.

wow-corruption everywhere

Ukraine is a source, transit, and destination country for men, women, and children subjected to forced labor and sex trafficking.

where does the corruption end?

Statements from U.S. and other Western officials, as well as pervasive accounts in the news media, have created a stunningly misleading image of Ukraine. There has been a concerted effort to portray the country not only as a victim of brutal Russian aggression, but as a plucky and noble bulwark of freedom and democracy. The conventional narrative would have us believe that Ukraine is an Eastern European version of Denmark.

Couldn't have said it better....

Given that sobering reality, calls for Americans to “stand with Ukraine” are misplaced. Preserving Ukraine’s independence and territorial integrity most certainly are not worth the United States risking war with a nuclear-armed Russia.

but the bio labs are for the sake of humanity

a reply to: fringeofthefringe

I’m not even going to bother reading your link because I already know for a fact no one’s giving Ukraine nuclear weapons.

originally posted by: fringeofthefringe

a reply to: chr0naut

Ukraine is a total cesspool that knows no bounds.

Not long ago, Ukraine’s state-run natural-gas company was considered a monopolistic cesspool of corruption, “the poster child of inefficient and nontransparent state monopolies bearing high credit risks,” as one think-tank report put it in 2010.

wow-corruption everywhere

Ukraine is a source, transit, and destination country for men, women, and children subjected to forced labor and sex trafficking.

where does the corruption end?

Statements from U.S. and other Western officials, as well as pervasive accounts in the news media, have created a stunningly misleading image of Ukraine. There has been a concerted effort to portray the country not only as a victim of brutal Russian aggression, but as a plucky and noble bulwark of freedom and democracy. The conventional narrative would have us believe that Ukraine is an Eastern European version of Denmark.

Couldn't have said it better....

You could replace the word 'Ukraine' with 'the USA' or 'Russia' and all of that would be just as true. Remember Enron, Sub-Prime mortgages, the oligarchs, and hundreds of other examples of corruption happening in the same time-frame?

Given that sobering reality, calls for Americans to “stand with Ukraine” are misplaced. Preserving Ukraine’s independence and territorial integrity most certainly are not worth the United States risking war with a nuclear-armed Russia.

but the bio labs are for the sake of humanity

Some of the bio-labs were truly Soviet Bioweapons facilities. But they probably also did benign research too... A laboratory can be put towards multiple uses.