Well we know Putins ICBMs won't fail in their silos

originally posted by: WeMustCare
a reply to: CriticalStinker

Building blows up. Why does the type of delivery missile matter?

That’s a good question.

In terms of on the ground tactical strategy, I can’t see why it would. But alas, I’m not savvy enough to know if this has more of an edge from the hypersonic missiles they’ve been using. I suppose it would come down to how hard it is to intercept on reentry. But I don’t think they have anything like the THAAD, so it very well have a real edge.

But Putnam brought up an excellent point, one that I didn’t think about. It is escalatory in the sense it puts the world on edge if we detect ICBMs being launched and sent into orbit. Especially after recent rhetoric by the Russians on the nuclear topic.

originally posted by: putnam6

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: CriticalStinker

US satellite detection will most likely have detected the launch soon after or when it left the silo.

I'd imagine that set off a few alarms across the world, he had to let somebody know they weren't nuclear-tipped.

Didn’t even think about that. Even if they told us, it could desensitize people if it’s done on multiple occasions. Then it only takes one to slip through after them warning of strikes on Ukraine.

Britain is now "directly involved" in the Ukraine war after its Storm Shadow missiles were used to strike targets inside Russia, according to Moscow's ambassador.
Speaking to Sky News' Mark Austin, Russian ambassador to the UK Andrei Kelin also accused Ukraine of using mercenaries from different countries in the fighting.

news.sky.com...

So its OK for Iran North Korea and China to be directly involved on Russias side,but when Britain supplies missiles to Ukraine its not OK for some reason Andrei?

a reply to: Xtrozero

I disagree. It's a proxy war with Ukraine as a puppet. Both sides in this war is run by a full force propaganda machine that does not give a # about Ukraine on either side.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: putnam6

I did not say he has carte blanche but hitting a NATO nation would trigger an article 5.

And thats a third world war.

He's blustering putnam6 and knows fine well what happens under such a scenario.

Which does not bode well for mother Russia, or many others for that matter, my own little 700-mile-long island included.

I dont think he is ready to shoot his nation in the nuclear foot just yet.

I wonder if it feels like blustering to Ukraine or the targets they just took out.

We all know what Article 5 means, it means Russia will continue to dance around NATO and pound Ukraine into the mud. Solidifying his positions countering Ukraine killing their troops and civilians.

What's the end game for NATO supply Ukraine till they crumble?

What is the timetable for Ukrainian complete victory... at this pace 3-5 years? bare minimum.

a reply to: onestonemonkey

I don’t think that would be an apt comparison.

For one, China has stayed distant. Only NK, Belarus and Iran have had direct involvement to my knowledge.

Also, them being involved doesn’t directly impact the US, or anyone else in the west aside from the fact we support Ukraine, no loss of life on our end to my knowledge.

But what I would compare it to is in Syria, when Wagner directly pushed on US positions. We dusted them though. Still not an attack on mainland US, but it still shows Russia hasn’t been as innocent as they’d have the world believe on the geopolitical stage.

Ultimately, they’re a modern power post WWII actively expanding their borders through war. They’re doing so in Europe too, which is a sore spot for a lot of the world powers.

a reply to: Aardwolfington

It has always been a proxy war of attrition, but it didn't start that way. Russia was stupid to start it off, but they saw the same routine from the past of tanks going down the road and hardly a shot fired in their victory. Ukraine actually punched back and rocked Russia on its heels. This showed the world just how much Russia was a paper dragon and at that point, this opened the door for a proxy war of attrition. The reality is that as wars go it is about the cheapest method we could have.

originally posted by: onestonemonkey

Britain is now "directly involved" in the Ukraine war after its Storm Shadow missiles were used to strike targets inside Russia, according to Moscow's ambassador.
Speaking to Sky News' Mark Austin, Russian ambassador to the UK Andrei Kelin also accused Ukraine of using mercenaries from different countries in the fighting.

news.sky.com...

So its OK for Iran North Korea and China to be directly involved on Russias side,but when Britain supplies missiles to Ukraine its not OK for some reason Andrei?

Russian Ambassador speaks with fork tongue.

originally posted by: CriticalStinker

originally posted by: WeMustCare
a reply to: CriticalStinker

Building blows up. Why does the type of delivery missile matter?

That’s a good question.

In terms of on the ground tactical strategy, I can’t see why it would. But alas, I’m not savvy enough to know if this has more of an edge from the hypersonic missiles they’ve been using. I suppose it would come down to how hard it is to intercept on reentry. But I don’t think they have anything like the THAAD, so it very well have a real edge.

But Putnam brought up an excellent point, one that I didn’t think about. It is escalatory in the sense it puts the world on edge if we detect ICBMs being launched and sent into orbit. Especially after recent rhetoric by the Russians on the nuclear topic.

Good point...about the ICBM missiles. They do fly higher, but the trajectory to strike a neighboring country has to be mostly vertical ascent and descent. But using an ICBM obviously made the point that Russia is still a world super power, and showing a lot of restraint. Putin only now strikes a major weapons depot in Ukraine. Why not destroy them all this week and get it over with? Maybe war-games are fun for rich bored powerful leaders.

a reply to: putnam6

In the long run i think poor Ukraine will simply be a stopgap.

Pretty much the sacrificial lamb used to bring about and usher in the new cold war that's on the horizon.

As to victory, i mean that means different things to different people.

But i think its a safe bet to say both Russia and Ukraine have already paid a price that will make such a notion rather a bitter taste in the mouth no matter who manages to claim victory.

Hell of a thing to win really.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I hope Trump will do like Obama did when Russia invaded Ukraine in 2012. STAY OUT OF IT.

dp

a reply to: Xtrozero

Russia started it off because they wanted to insure they had Ukraine as a buffer nation between them and the US/UN. The situation being threatened by Biden is the very thing they were even attempting this to prevent. The US/UN and Russia are both at fault here. Let's not pretend none of our CIA regime changing to get Ukraine to join the UN didn't happen too. Ukraine is being #ed because we want to have our weaponry in easy range to the Kremlin and the Kremlin wants to make sure this doesn't happen and is willing to kill Ukrainians to do it, same as the west.

This is not Ukraine vs. Russia, it's the Warhawks vs. Russia with the Ukrainian and Russian citizenship as the pawns in the conflict. Only it's perfect for the Warhawks because they get the advantage of their weapon sales without the blowback of US soldiers being involved. It's mostly Ukrainians and Russian citizens doing all the dying.

Our CIA "We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false."-William J. Casey, CIA Director

Considering using propaganda against US citizens via media has been fully legal since Obama, I don't give them much more trust than I do Russian propaganda. Especially where it benefits Warhawks. I'm not a Putin fan, but I'm also not a "Weapons of mass destruction" fan either. I don't forget these things.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: putnam6
So what's next ATS think tank members...

Biden's DoD insisting that Ukraine needs ICBMs to compete with Russia?

for the children of the Cold War ICBMs being used was once considered the crossing of the "Rubicon" the opening of Pandoras box. Seems we are stuck in an endless loop of participants going look what I can do.

At what level do you think Russia knows a completely different direction president will be in office come Jan 20? They will talk a lot, but they are not doing anything until after Trump is in office.

You are also confused with what a IBCM is. The rockets Biden approved have a range of 180 miles and to call something IBCM it needs a range greater than 5500 miles...kind of a big difference, might as well add that IBCMs are nukes...lol and these rockets are about 3000 lbs and I think about 2000 pounds of boom.

I'm not for the war, but I really didn't understand the whole we can invade you, but you can't step a foot into Mother Russia. A key player for Ukraine is to disrupt the supply system, which these rockets and other measures need to do.

ICBM hell I thought that meant I Can Bomb Many.

Did you think I wasn't plugged in enough to know the difference between ICBMs and ATACMs? FFS

I was sarcastically saying every time Putin uses something new in the theater that is Ukraine, Zelensky asks for the same thing or the US's best countermeasures. YES or NO

From Abrams to F-22'S to Patriot missile batteries what's next on Ukraine's WWIII shopping list?

All the while Russia continues to have the upper hand and can still absorb damage that Ukraine can not.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: putnam6

6 MIRVs, not ICBMs, I think.

search did Russia use ICBMs

brings a mixture of they did or they didn't.

Why would Russia say they did use ICBMs knowing full well the US/NATO has capabilities to detect if that's bullchit?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: watchitburn

As I've been saying since the beginning of the conflict. We can't believe anything coming out of there from either side.

I would say 90% of what Russia says are lies and 40 to 50% with Ukraine. We also have an easier time calling BS on Ukraine as with Russia they are an isolated country that can say anything, and do, and get away with it.

Like the Ghost of Kiev?
Like F off ship?
Like shooting a rocket into Poland?

Come on man...

At least Russia is shooting the missiles at Ukraine. There was only one big missile which hit it's target, the others were just larger missiles that got shot down. Maybe those were shot to increase the chance of the bigger missile hitting it's target.

This was a warning, it could have been a nuke shot right at Kiev or any other country of NATO.

WE should not have allowed Ukraine to use our missiles, I put this all on Biden, because as president he authorized it, no matter who is pulling his strings. He could have said no as any person with a brain will do. That was followed by the UK allowing use of some of their missiles to shoot into Russia...bad move there too. By the time Trump gets in there will be no way he will be able to de-escalate this thing. We will be in WW111 fully.

Now China has shut down forty percent of their factories....where are those workers gone. Lots of men to build their army are freed up. They are also diversifying the new factories all over china to make sure the west can't knock out all their production of things all in one area. The new factories will probably have better potential to switch to weapon production if needed. Using compliance with climate change crazy laws to accomplish this without detection. Now it will be good for their own people to diversify the locations of factories too, and they are still producing the high dollar stuff, they just reduced the amount of stuff that people buy here in the USA for a while that is cheap, charging higher prices when their new factories are completed because of increased costs. If you really need something that comes from there in the next few years, I would suggest you consider buying it before demand exceeds production. Like parts for a toilet, or maybe replacing the stove that is failing. Some of the production will be sent to other countries...Which will also increase prices of things because factories there need to be built with climate change rules in place. So, just buy what you really need, don't go farther in debt buying stuff you want.

If WW111 does break out, factories everywhere will be hit by both sides. Make sure to have extra wiper blades for your car.

kyivindependent.com...

What sort of intercontinental ballistic missile did Russia launch?
This has yet to be confirmed, but on Nov. 20 Ukrainian media reported that Russia was preparing to test, or launch, an RS-26 Rubezh medium-range ICBM.

The Rubezh is reported to have a range of up to 6,000 kilometers, can carry four warheads each with an estimated payload of 0.3 megatons.

If confirmed, it would mean the launch had "virtually no military value," Fabian Hoffmann, a defense expert and doctoral research fellow at the University of Oslo, told the Kyiv Independent.

He points out that Russia is not known to possess a non-nuclear warhead for the Rubezh, meaning it's likely it carried a "weight simulator, instead of a warhead."

Hoffman adds that the Rubezh is equipped with a MIRV payload, which stands for Multiple Independent Reentry Vehicles. Purported footage of the attack shows multiple projectiles hitting the ground, but without the large explosions normally associated with conventional missiles or payloads.

"So this strike is not for military value, this is purely, purely for political purposes

How can Ukraine intercept intercontinental ballistic missiles?
Ukraine's U.S.-supplied Patriots have been effective at intercepting the ballistic missiles launched by Russia to date, but according to Defense Express, they are not currently optimized to intercept ICBMs.

If Russia began to regularly launch ICBMs, Ukraine's air defenses would need to be bolstered by more advanced air defense systems like the THAAD (Terminal High Altitude Area Defense), the outlet reported.

a reply to: watchitburn

There are lies and propaganda on both sides

The first casualty of War is Truth, and all that.

But, when it comes to lies and propaganda, Russia is and always has been in a league of it's own.

Look at Lavrov. If he was Pinocchio Putin would need a longer table to avoid a poke in the eye.

a reply to: putnam6

No expert me, but the impacts, rather than explosions, looked to be kinetic.