Putin on brink as Kremlin infighting erupts over 'crashing' economy and food shortages

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: YourFaceAgain

Do you really think a great way to find out is just to go ahead and attack them in a way that, if they had them, they'd use them?

Awfully big consequences if you're wrong.

Putin has threatened Nuclear retaliation for crossing his 'redlines' but he's moved them time and time again.
Even though most of us don't want a nuclear war, we still need to stand up to totalatarian goverments threatening sovereign countries with attack and invasion.

If he invades a NATO country, maybe. We're under no obligation to get into a nuclear war with Russia over Ukraine.

a reply to: YourFaceAgain

If he invades a NATO country, maybe. We're under no obligation to get into a nuclear war with Russia over Ukraine.

We are obliged to some degree though. We (America and Great Britain) signed the Budapest Memorandum...

Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the signatories to the memorandum.

Do you think Russia would be using these tactics if America hadn't removed and dismanteled Ukrainian Nukes?

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: YourFaceAgain

If he invades a NATO country, maybe. We're under no obligation to get into a nuclear war with Russia over Ukraine.

We are obliged to some degree though. We (America and Great Britain) signed the Budapest Memorandum...

And not once has anyone talking about that agreement shown it to anyone.

There's a reason for that: it doesn't say what it has been misrepresented to have said. All you ever see are some journalists "paraphrasing" of it in an article or some pundit on TV talking about what it says.

Here's the actual agreement.

Nowhere in there does it say we're obligated to help defend Ukraine. The only part that comes even remotely close to that is part 4:

4. The United States of America, the Russian Fed- eration, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggres- sion in which nuclear weapons are used.

All we're required to do is seek immediate action by the UNSC, which we did. The UNSC couldn't take action because Russia is part of the UNSC.

Our treaty obligations were met without us sending Ukraine a dime. And we damn sure don't need to enter the war to meet it.

And, just to be clear, that doesn't mean I think we shouldn't have sent aid to Ukraine. I'm just clarifying what we were required to do, which was very little. We've already gone miles beyond our obligations.

ETA: And also to be clear, I wasn't saying you misrepresented it. You likely just weren't aware of what it said because, as I noted, all the news coverage mentioning it consistently neglects actually quoting it or linking to it so people can read it for themselves.

a reply to: YourFaceAgain

Which is why I said...

We are obliged to some degree though.

I'm well aware of what the Budapest Memorandum said. This is a moral obligation, Ukraine agreed to give up it's Nukes and if they'd still had them Putin wouldn't have dreamt of attacking them or annexing Crimea.

ETA
Also part 6....

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments

a reply to: Kurokage

"Consult" when Russia is one of the sides in the war sounds like ceasefire negotiations to me.

I'm not trying to be a wiseass. What do you propose we do at this point?

Russia is dug in and a lot of military minds think the only way to get them out now is with kinetic NATO help, which will likely spark a nuclear war.

The time to give Ukraine enough support to win was in the early days. The West dithered, and now it's too late.

originally posted by: YourFaceAgain
a reply to: Kurokage

"Consult" when Russia is one of the sides in the war sounds like ceasefire negotiations to me.

I'm not trying to be a wiseass. What do you propose we do at this point?

Russia is dug in and a lot of military minds think the only way to get them out now is with kinetic NATO help, which will likely spark a nuclear war.

I see 'consult' as discussions for a way forward to end any conflict, that could include negotiations, or support. It's a bit of an ambiguous statement and I think it was written that way on purpose.

Russian have now added Iranian weapons and North Korea troops to the mix, and it's Putin whos pushing this to a larger conflict. I think maybe the time has come to allow Ukraine greater control of the use of western weapons because of Putins' use of outside troops.

The time to give Ukraine enough support to win was in the early days. The West dithered, and now it's too late

That is the fault of Obama and Trump.

originally posted by: BasicResearchMethods

originally posted by: FloridaManMatty



I’ll go one step further and predict that Xi and the CCP choose to take on a fight that they can actually win and will ultimately pull a fast one and invade eastern Russia. Not only will this get them a LOT of land a resources, it would also help them curry favor with much of the rest of the world in the process.

Less likely than it was in the late 60s. Much less likely.

China is playing the long game. It won't risk alienating the BRICS and developing world by picking a fight with Russia,

Well just yesterday there were news stories saying that students were assembling to overthrow the CCP. And I remember reading articles with the same sentiments every year about China for the last 20 years and nothing has come of it. I am sure Russia will be the same story. Russia is resilient and it will always bounce back. And screw the Ukraine...that corrupt backwards country. They are the belligerents in this war in the first place.

a reply to: AlexandrosOMegas

Russia is resilient and it will always bounce back. And screw the Ukraine...that corrupt backwards country. They are the belligerents in this war in the first place.

o

Seeing how Russian has been shown to be the most corrupt country in Europe, I don't get your point here? And as for Ukraine being belligerent, it was Russian who annexed Crimea and invaded Ukraine, I think your understanding of the conflict is rather flawed....

a reply to: Kurokage

The West slow-rolling support in 2022 was definitely not the fault of Obama or Trump.

You don't have to take it from me. Take it from a Ukrainian journalist. This is a podcast featuring an excellent interview with him earlier this year. He talks about how Ukraine probably could have won in the early days of the war if the West had stepped up support faster and the Biden administration didn't dither on "We can't send them X" and then they get X 6 months later, "We can't send them Y," and then they get Y a year later. If the West gave them what they needed early on, they could have won. Now it's too late. And I've heard this same analysis from military analysts too.

The West's strategy of giving Ukraine just enough to let them limp along in a bloody stalemate for almost 3 years now is a disgrace.

Anyway, it's likely you're just gonna brush that off and we're just going in circles now so toodles, this thread is far off course anyway.

a reply to: YourFaceAgain

Is Biden Sending Weapons to Ukraine Creating an American Jobs Boom?

www.newsweek.com...

Why is there money always for war?

a reply to: YourFaceAgain

The West slow-rolling support in 2022 was definitely not the fault of Obama or Trump.

This was the start, In February and March 2014, Russia invaded the Crimean Peninsula, part of Ukraine, and then annexed it.....

In reality, Putin has been using the Russian economy to feed his ego and Ukraine conflict for 10 years.

How much is russia in debt $306.1 billion.
147.2 million people. 2,079 each person.

How much is us in debt $35.85 trillion.
335,893,238 million people. $106,730 each person.

That is 51 times more than russia !
USA is a Fake Economy!

The ONLY way they can pay that off is to
drop nuclear bombs on every thing.

or maybe a alien attack.
or All computers are destroid by
a Sun massive emp or virus.