Russia blames the West for a change in its Nuclear Doctrine

a reply to: Dalamax

It doesn't.

Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it.

a reply to: Dalamax

But when one regional player is far more militarily superior than the other, has deliberately provoked and agitated in the other countries internal affairs and bribed elected officials all prior to an unprovoked invasion on the non-threatening neighbour do 'we' just sit back and shrug our shoulders and say 'nothing to do with us'?
Does a nations Right to Self-Determination mean nothing?

Do you think it would be ok if the UK was to invade and bulldoze its way through The Republic of Ireland on some imaginary, made-up pre-text?
Or if Germany were to blitzkrieg its way through Austria and the former Czechoslovakia again?
What about if Mexico were to invade Guatemala or Belize?

When would you recommend countries get involved?
After Russia has retaken Moldova?
Or Lithuania, Estonia or Latvia?
Possibly Poland?

Appeasement doesn't work, never has and never will.
Neither does Isolationism.

a reply to: Freeborn

Poland might be a tough one. Even leaving out NATO they have a formidable military.

But, there is NATO.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

If Russia is stupid enough to invade Poland that's an automatic triggering of Article 5 as far as i can establish.

And Putin knows fine well NATO forces will wipe the floor with the antiquated half-arsed military that is the Russian Federation forces left standing.

Hence he would need to chuck some nukes out of the pram while he still had the capability to do so.

And China certainly would not be happy with that sort of scenario because there goes the bread and butter that is there European markets.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: MrGashler
a reply to: Oldcarpy2

I don't disagree. But we can't very well act surprised when Russia gets pissed off about people joining an alliance that was formed SPECIFICALLY to stand against Russia. Again, I'm not saying Russia is right in what they've done, but I am saying I understand it and that Russia isn't entirely to blame for all of this.

If by "this" you refer to the current war with Ukraine, sorry, Russia is 100% to blame for "this".

Russia is 100% to blame? Get off your high horse cowboy. It takes two to tango. East and West are both to blame for the squabble over Ukraine. Both sides have been battling this out at least since Napoleon invaded Russia. It's just another chapter in the game to control central and eastern Europe. If you can't see that the West takes some of the blame (initially and within living memory for killing tens of millions of Slavs during WW2 often in the most gruesome manner and leaving the natives feeling a little defensive in attitude) then I give up. The fact is the West needs to give Russia some space, stop funding proxy wars and respect that Moscow has its near abroad. Right now the West is taking the piss big style. If Moscow launches a couple of nukes our way and you wonder 'why now,' please remember your 100% theory.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

The West is not invading anywhere in Europe.

Russia is.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

The West is not invading anywhere in Europe.

Russia is.

Apparently that is the wests fault.

a reply to: BedevereTheWise

Isn't it always?

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

"Right now the West is taking the piss big style. If Moscow launches a couple of nukes our way and you wonder 'why now,' please remember your 100% theory."

That would be our fault?!!!!

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: MrGashler
a reply to: Oldcarpy2

I don't disagree. But we can't very well act surprised when Russia gets pissed off about people joining an alliance that was formed SPECIFICALLY to stand against Russia. Again, I'm not saying Russia is right in what they've done, but I am saying I understand it and that Russia isn't entirely to blame for all of this.

If by "this" you refer to the current war with Ukraine, sorry, Russia is 100% to blame for "this".

Russia is 100% to blame? Get off your high horse cowboy. It takes two to tango. East and West are both to blame for the squabble over Ukraine. Both sides have been battling this out at least since Napoleon invaded Russia. It's just another chapter in the game to control central and eastern Europe. If you can't see that the West takes some of the blame (initially and within living memory for killing tens of millions of Slavs during WW2 often in the most gruesome manner and leaving the natives feeling a little defensive in attitude) then I give up. The fact is the West needs to give Russia some space, stop funding proxy wars and respect that Moscow has its near abroad. Right now the West is taking the piss big style. If Moscow launches a couple of nukes our way and you wonder 'why now,' please remember your 100% theory.

Russia has more than a little history of invading and killing it's neighbours population to, within much younger living memory as well.

That is the reason it's neighbours want to be in NATO.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

The West is not invading anywhere in Europe.

Russia is.

I've watched the West / NATO / EU, whatever one wants to call this group slowly move eastwards over the past 35 years. The fact that has taken until now for Russia to bite back is amazing. Slowly but surely Russia has seen its near abroad eroded. Ukraine should have been left within Moscow's sphere of influence, yet it was targeted as the next step towards control over Russia and its resources. We may differ on this view point yet place ypurself in a Russian pair of shoes and check out the view from the west post 1989. Just remember it didn't have to be this way. Russia could have kept control yet they pulled back from their bases in central and eastern Europe, just to watch Yanks, Brits and Germans come their way. Total madness and what we see today in Ukraine and the danger of escalation to MAD is just real estate greed. Madness, total MADness and something we might not live to regret.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

The West is not invading anywhere in Europe.

Russia is.

I've watched the West / NATO / EU, whatever one wants to call this group slowly move eastwards over the past 35 years. The fact that has taken until now for Russia to bite back is amazing. Slowly but surely Russia has seen its near abroad eroded. Ukraine should have been left within Moscow's sphere of influence, yet it was targeted as the next step towards control over Russia and its resources. We may differ on this view point yet place ypurself in a Russian pair of shoes and check out the view from the west post 1989. Just remember it didn't have to be this way. Russia could have kept control yet they pulled back from their bases in central and eastern Europe, just to watch Yanks, Brits and Germans come their way. Total madness and what we see today in Ukraine and the danger of escalation to MAD is just real estate greed. Madness, total MADness and something we might not live to regret.

Russia didnt pull back, the Soviet union was collapsing and countries wanted to have their independence.

The same indepence Putin is trying to rob them off ( and you are supporting him)

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

If you can't see that the West takes some of the blame (initially and within living memory for killing tens of millions of Slavs during WW2 often in the most gruesome manner....

When and where did 'The West' kill "tens of millions of Slavs during WW2"?
What "gruesome manner".

And WWII isn't really living memory for the vast majority.....it ended 79 years ago.

Sorry mate but Russia invaded Ukraine, a non-threatening neighbour. A neighbour it had sworn to never invade and to respect its borders and independence.

And Russia is the only nation threatening to use nuclear weapons.
Doesn't matter which way anyone tries spin or sugarcoat it the reality is Russia is the aggressor.

They'd all be dead in Nazi gas chambers or worked to death and replaced with Krauts if it wasn't for Russia! The "neighbours" have had their leadership along with their propaganda fed population brainwashed by the West. Likewise you yourself have been brainwashed.

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: MrGashler
a reply to: Oldcarpy2

I don't disagree. But we can't very well act surprised when Russia gets pissed off about people joining an alliance that was formed SPECIFICALLY to stand against Russia. Again, I'm not saying Russia is right in what they've done, but I am saying I understand it and that Russia isn't entirely to blame for all of this.

If by "this" you refer to the current war with Ukraine, sorry, Russia is 100% to blame for "this".

Russia is 100% to blame? Get off your high horse cowboy. It takes two to tango. East and West are both to blame for the squabble over Ukraine. Both sides have been battling this out at least since Napoleon invaded Russia. It's just another chapter in the game to control central and eastern Europe. If you can't see that the West takes some of the blame (initially and within living memory for killing tens of millions of Slavs during WW2 often in the most gruesome manner and leaving the natives feeling a little defensive in attitude) then I give up. The fact is the West needs to give Russia some space, stop funding proxy wars and respect that Moscow has its near abroad. Right now the West is taking the piss big style. If Moscow launches a couple of nukes our way and you wonder 'why now,' please remember your 100% theory.

Russia has more than a little history of invading and killing it's neighbours population to, within much younger living memory as well.

That is the reason it's neighbours want to be in NATO.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
They'd all be dead in Nazi gas chambers or worked to death and replaced with Krauts if it wasn't for Russia! The "neighbours" have had their leadership along with their propaganda fed population brainwashed by the West. Likewise you yourself have been brainwashed.

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: MrGashler
a reply to: Oldcarpy2

I don't disagree. But we can't very well act surprised when Russia gets pissed off about people joining an alliance that was formed SPECIFICALLY to stand against Russia. Again, I'm not saying Russia is right in what they've done, but I am saying I understand it and that Russia isn't entirely to blame for all of this.

If by "this" you refer to the current war with Ukraine, sorry, Russia is 100% to blame for "this".

Russia is 100% to blame? Get off your high horse cowboy. It takes two to tango. East and West are both to blame for the squabble over Ukraine. Both sides have been battling this out at least since Napoleon invaded Russia. It's just another chapter in the game to control central and eastern Europe. If you can't see that the West takes some of the blame (initially and within living memory for killing tens of millions of Slavs during WW2 often in the most gruesome manner and leaving the natives feeling a little defensive in attitude) then I give up. The fact is the West needs to give Russia some space, stop funding proxy wars and respect that Moscow has its near abroad. Right now the West is taking the piss big style. If Moscow launches a couple of nukes our way and you wonder 'why now,' please remember your 100% theory.

Russia has more than a little history of invading and killing it's neighbours population to, within much younger living memory as well.

That is the reason it's neighbours want to be in NATO.

Much better to be starved, oppressed and murdered by the Soviet union, who tried to carve up eastern Europe with the Nazis?

In my experience few things are a more certain indicator of lack of critical thinking skills than accusing people who have a different view from you of being brainwashed.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

"Russia could have kept control yet they pulled back from their bases in central and eastern Europe, just to watch Yanks, Brits and Germans come their way. Total madness and what we see today in Ukraine and the danger of escalation to MAD is just real estate greed. Madness, total MADness and something we might not live to regret."

That's because the Old Soviet Union collapsed and it's old subject states were only too pleased to break free of it.

The West has invaded no real estate.

Russia has, mind.

We have not "annexed" anywhere.

Russia has.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

yet it was targeted as the next step towards control over Russia and its resources

How is NATO a step towards control of Russia? NATO is a defence pact/organisation and in no way an attacking force. Putins' control of Russia and interference of former USSR satalites is why Eastern Europe moved to joining the EU and NATO. You do seem like a Putin apologist here?
Why should Russia keep control (as you say) of free independent countries? They were free to move either way, and they chose Europe.
Russia seized Germany and Eastern Europe post WW2 and ruled with a deathly grip, why after the collapse would they want to contine that?

Flippin Germans invaded and killed masses, maybe 30 million Soviets alone. Germany is part of the West. Within living memory they killed half the population of our island. Now they place their Wehrmacht into the Baltic states oppositie St. Petersburg! At the same time Britain and the States gobble up eastern Europe placing it into the West's orbit. A massive campaign to undermine Russia's influence in its near abroad. From a Russian pespective the West is moving east again. It's obvious to a blind man.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

If you can't see that the West takes some of the blame (initially and within living memory for killing tens of millions of Slavs during WW2 often in the most gruesome manner....

When and where did 'The West' kill "tens of millions of Slavs during WW2"?
What "gruesome manner".

And WWII isn't really living memory for the vast majority.....it ended 79 years ago.

Sorry mate but Russia invaded Ukraine, a non-threatening neighbour. A neighbour it had sworn to never invade and to respect its borders and independence.

And Russia is the only nation threatening to use nuclear weapons.
Doesn't matter which way anyone tries spin or sugarcoat it the reality is Russia is the aggressor.

a reply to: BedevereTheWise

Indeed, it's a short step towards calling folk "sheep", and then I'm afraid I shall call the 🚓 Police....

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

By "gobble up" don't you mean "willingly decided to join NATO " and the EU?