Wars and Rumors of Wars

a reply to: chr0naut

So then, how does God take control of the present world without evicting all earthly systems and bad people like the bible tells will happen just before the 1000 years starts?

Humans being Humans! If there are Aliens, I just pray to god they aren’t Humans from another planet.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: chr0naut

So then, how does God take control of the present world without evicting all earthly systems and bad people like the bible tells will happen just before the 1000 years starts?

not understanding you. God WILL remove the bad guys and implement His own system.

I'm hoping to have my own tv/movie studio.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: chr0naut

So then, how does God take control of the present world without evicting all earthly systems and bad people like the bible tells will happen just before the 1000 years starts?

Anyone can break things, so, God will establish his Earthly Kingdom supernaturally, because He is God, and every other pretender isn't.

"When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” - Luke 17:20-21.

a reply to: chr0naut

You need to re-read Matthew Chapter 24
The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

Perhaps you don't realize that Armageddon is embedded within the "Great Tribulation" which has multiple parts culminating with the final part Armageddon, that is the part where as you say the earthly part of the kingdom is established in a supernatural way.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: chr0naut

You need to re-read Matthew Chapter 24
The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

Perhaps you don't realize that Armageddon is embedded within the "Great Tribulation" which has multiple parts culminating with the final part Armageddon, that is the part where as you say the earthly part of the kingdom is established in a supernatural way.

What part of "the end is not yet" from Matthew 24, eludes you? Jesus was clearly saying that wars and rumours of war were NOT signs of the end, and that many will claim to be the messiah, but aren't.

And that whole bit about no-one knowing or being able to expect the end. It means exactly what it says. So looking for signs is pointless.

I think Jesus' point was that we need to be on our guard and ready at all times.

a reply to: chr0naut

Matthew 24:14

Speaks about the end coming after a preaching campaign comes to completion.
That "Good News" of the Kingdom that verse speaks of is pre-millennial and pre-tribulation

The end, is the Tribulation time period, then the millennial reign comes after the tribulation.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: chr0naut

You need to re-read Matthew Chapter 24
The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

Perhaps you don't realize that Armageddon is embedded within the "Great Tribulation" which has multiple parts culminating with the final part Armageddon, that is the part where as you say the earthly part of the kingdom is established in a supernatural way.

What part of "the end is not yet" from Matthew 24, eludes you? Jesus was clearly saying that wars and rumours of war were NOT signs of the end, and that many will claim to be the messiah, but aren't.

And that whole bit about no-one knowing or being able to expect the end. It means exactly what it says. So looking for signs is pointless.

I think Jesus' point was that we need to be on our guard and ready at all times.

I think you're overthinking this.
they asked him about signs of His coming, and the end of the age, and Jesus tells them about the false Christs and the wars.

“For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

“All these are the beginning of sorrows."

Matt 24:7-8, NKJ

so the wars are not the 'end', but the beginning of the sorrows, which will lead to the end.
which will come quickly.
no one knows the time lag involved.

“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.

“So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!"

Matt 24:32-33 NKJ

And that whole bit about no-one knowing or being able to expect the end. It means exactly what it says. So looking for signs is pointless.

disagree. we are told to keep watch.

“Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming."

Matt 24:42, NKJ

Chronaut, we don't agree on much, but you obviously know your Bible

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: chr0naut

Matthew 24:14

Speaks about the end coming after a preaching campaign comes to completion.

What preaching campaign? By whom? It doesn't also say the preaching campaign will be complete, either, and I'd say that there has been outreach to all nations at least for centuries (and you have to remember that Jesus ministry was specifically to the Jews, He said so Himself, but this is saying that the good news also goes to other nations).

What about the preaching campaigns of future false messiahs? Wouldn't that confuse things if they could deceive even the chosen?

What about the additions and subtractions to our modern text that are different to the earliest manuscripts? Isn't that something that might deceive the chosen, a false representation of Jesus and what He said, a falsified Messiah? For instance in verse 6 of chapter 24, in the earliest manuscripts, it says:

"And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that you are not troubled; for these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

compare that with modern translations where it says:

"And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.".

The absence of the word "all" means that these are not a specific list of things, conditions that all must happen, as they are assumed to mean by modern readers who are unaware of the addition. The difference is subtle, and was probably added for the most devout of reasons, but it misrepresents the sense of Jesus words.

The whole Olivet discourse was a private sermon to His disciples, specifically Peter, James, John and Andrew, and was given at one place, and at one time, on a specific topic. At the time of the Olivet discourse, the disciples still hadn't really understood that Jesus must die. Many of them thought that Jesus 'coming' in power was imminent. If you read the whole Olivet discourse, which includes chapter 25, and is also recorded in Mark 13, it is clear that Jesus was specifically trying to get the disciples to stay steadfast after His death.

Definitely, the destruction of the Temple spoken of in the Olivet discourse, occurred in AD 70, and the Roman General Titus and his soldiers carried the Roman Eagle and other military insignias into the Temple as they destroyed it.

In a parallel reference in Mark 13:14 it specifically warns Judeans to flee when they see "abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be."

Although it was often said that the 'abomination that leads to desolation' was enacted by Antiochus Epiphanes, it didn't at that time lead to desolation (in fact the opposite occurred and Jews drove Antiochus out in the Maccabean revolt and regained their land). However, desolation did occur in AD70, so the passage in Daniel 9:27 "On the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate." is better fulfilled in AD70 with the destruction of the temple. (Also, Antiochus of 186 BC was out of the time-frame of the Jews 'coming back into their land', being too early a date, to specifically fulfil the prophecy in Daniel).

Additionally, the Jewish historian Josephus makes note that Christians, heeding Jesus words, had already fled Jerusalem before the final assault on the city which killed over a million Jews.

That "Good News" of the Kingdom that verse speaks of is pre-millennial and pre-tribulation

Very much so.

The end, is the Tribulation time period, then the millennial reign comes after the tribulation.

I would argue that it is just as likely that the final battle is the one at Armageddon, which ends the tribulation period, and this is after the millennial earthly kingdom, but we don't really have any clear timeline of the order of events. Otherwise, Jesus would be lying about no-one knowing when it would happen.

a reply to: chr0naut

Definitely, the destruction of the Temple spoken of in the Olivet discourse, occurred in AD 70, and the Roman General Titus and his soldiers carried the Roman Eagle and other military insignias into the Temple as they destroyed it.

In a parallel reference in Mark 13:14 it specifically warns Judeans to flee when they see "abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be."

Although it was often said that the 'abomination that leads to desolation' was enacted by Antiochus Epiphanes, it didn't at that time lead to desolation (in fact the opposite occurred and Jews drove Antiochus out in the Maccabean revolt and regained their land). However, desolation did occur in AD70, so the passage in Daniel 9:27 "On the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate." is better fulfilled in AD70 with the destruction of the temple

I agree with you 100% on the Roman Desolation time frame but I want to add to your knowledge on this one.
And I am so glad you brought this part up.
We just discussed verse 14 of Matthew 24
"The End" actually happens in the next verse and ties into your statements.

Matthew 24:15 GNT

"You will see 'The Awful Horror' of which the prophet Daniel spoke. It will be standing in the holy place." (Note to the reader: understand what this means!)

What this actually is in the first century is General Gallus attacking Jerusalem in 66 AD
It is the only verse in the bible that warns the reader to basically meditate on this scripture and try to figure it out, why?
Because there were 2 attacks and
because it has a dual fulfillment one in the 1st century and one in our time period of the "the end" so the 21st century.
We also know that 70AD came after this verse because of Verse 16

those of you in Judea should flee to the mountains.

This ties into the warning Jesus gave in the other verses of get out of Jerusalem and the surrounding area's after the Romans attack, but how do you escape when under siege, history tells us for some strange reason General Gallus after having some success suddenly withdrew his troops, this was the window for all faithful Christians to flee the area, and they did. In 70 AD the Romans came back under General Titus and there would be no escaping this time.

But what about the modern fulfillment, well just like a political entity and army was in a holy place for Jewish religion it should not have been, this will happen again, a political entity with an army will insert itself into a place Christianity and other religions find VERY objectionable.
This action will cause great difficulty for all organized religions, and although atheists might be happy at this time, it will throw the world into a chaotic time unlike any in history thus kicking off the "Great Tribulation" It gets so bad that if God does not intervene nobody would survive

Verses 21 & 22

For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

The intervention is Armageddon

Crazy crazy times .a reply to: Coelacanth55

a reply to: chr0naut

Armageddon is not fought at the end of the 1,000 year rule of Christ. It is fought to start the 1,000 year reign. In fact Psalm 45 helps you see this fact. I would suggest you reading my thread on that beautiful chapter here:

Psalm 45 - One of the Most Beautifully Prophetic Chapters in the Bible

You see first there is a war. That is when Jesus as the rider of the white horse rides forth in the cause of truth and humility and righteousness (Psalm 45:4).

This is depicted in Revelation 19:11-21.

Then starting in Revelation 20:1 we see that Satan is abyssed and then the 1,000 year rule commences. We then see the marriage of the bridge to the lamb in Revelation 21:9-14 this coincides with the marriage feast in Psalm 45:10-16.

Now at the end of Revelation 19 we see the political wild beast and the false prophet thrown into the lake of fire. (This coincides with the rock being carved out of the mountain not by a human and hurled at the feet of the image in Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

Now the false prophet and the wild beast are done away with by Jesus Christ at Armageddon. Then there is the marriage feast in heaven, then there is the 1,000 year rule of Christ with his 144,000 anointed co-rulers over humankind. At the end of the 1,000 years Satan is let out of the abyss to misled the nations. And THEN he is also thrown into the lake of fire of eternal destruction along with Death and the Grave where the false prophet and the wild beast were already thrown in the battle of Armageddon:

"Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Maʹgog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them. 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."-Revelation 20:7-10.