Bring back national service if Tories win election

Sunak is proposing brining back National Service in the UK.

news.sky.com...

Proposed option of either 1 year military placement or 'volunteering' one weekend a month in a non military role. Not sure how it is volunteering if compulsory but whatever.

Is this a good idea to provide "life-changing opportunities for young people" and allow them to learn "real world skills". Or is it a desperate last gasp to appeal to disaffected tory voters before the election.

Well that's just lost him every young voter in the country.

Young people don't want to die or kill for rich men.

a reply to: BedevereTheWise


Today in things that won't happen we discuss ....

if Tories win election

At this point Sunak can promise anything without fear of having to implement it , I agree National Service should be a thing in this period of instability and the benefits of teaching young men how to be men would pay dividends when it comes to youth unemployment and anti-social behaviour , give them a trade then set them free until they're possible needed to defend our country.

originally posted by: Maybenexttime
Well that's just lost him every young voter in the country.

Young people don't want to die or kill for rich men.

Tory support amongst young people is already so low he probably can't lose much more.

The policy is probably aimed to appeal to tradional right wing voters who may be considering voting Reform instead.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: BedevereTheWise


Today in things that won't happen we discuss ....

if Tories win election

At this point Sunak can promise anything without fear of having to implement it , I agree National Service should be a thing in this period of instability and the benefits of teaching young men how to be men would pay dividends when it comes to youth unemployment and anti-social behaviour , give them a trade then set them free until they're possible needed to defend our country.

Does the military, NHS or charities want a bunch of 18 year olds who don't want to be there?

I think the idea of shorter term military contracts has some benefit but not if compulsory.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: BedevereTheWise


Today in things that won't happen we discuss ....

if Tories win election

At this point Sunak can promise anything without fear of having to implement it , I agree National Service should be a thing in this period of instability and the benefits of teaching young men how to be men would pay dividends when it comes to youth unemployment and anti-social behaviour , give them a trade then set them free until they're possible needed to defend our country.

Oh and I agree about the not going to happen thing, but as a hypothetical.

a reply to: BedevereTheWise

It is a gimmick and a desperate attempt to keep power. Multiple reasons for that.


It'll dilute the quality of a military that is already struggling. 1/4 of that time will be training. We haven't got the facilities to host the numbers. A significant percentage will fail basic training or the medical. Most of all do we really want the youth with military training and then being let loose on society with what'll be effectively 9 months of service?

Again consider the fact we wouldn't have the numbers to actually effectively train them. Don't get me wrong it's a brilliant idea for anyone with the idea the grass was greener in the past but they'd be people who hardly understand a professional army that's highly regulated, just recently their was a story about a woman being denied due to a 1.9% chance she'll have breast cancer before 30...

As for the 'volunteering' all I can do is laugh. It's either volunteering and the youth will sit and play on their phones or it's mandatory work placements. Neither will be anywhere near as affective as they'll make out to believe.

Best sort the NHS out before they even consider doing this. I'd be asking the older voters if they really want a bunch of crazy youths having access to weaponry or in roles within society close to home where they'll actually be required to do things that might actually cause a lot more trouble than it's worth if they're not done effectively.

The only incentive is money these days. We're skint... I'm sure this will change quite a few voters minds but the reality is nobody wants the youth working for them if they simply do not want to work, this will prove to be a massive headache imho.

a reply to: BedevereTheWise

I think this policy is aimed at the feral unemployed youth who have no direction other than causing trouble , selling drugs and claiming benefits , those in work or education get an option of the weekend volunteering kinda like the TA , a years military service will give them a trade and direction in life as well as a bit of self respect and an escape route out of poverty.

I think it's something Labour should look at when they take power.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: BedevereTheWise

I think this policy is aimed at the feral unemployed youth who have no direction other than causing trouble , selling drugs and claiming benefits , those in work or education get an option of the weekend volunteering kinda like the TA , a years military service will give them a trade and direction in life as well as a bit of self respect and an escape route out of poverty.

I think it's something Labour should look at when they take power.

Not sure giving feral drug dealing youth weapons training is a great idea...

Better opportunities for 18 year old, including short term military service is a good idea.

However compulsory service is just passing the buck of dealing with failing of parents and the education system onto the military who frankly have much more important things to deal with at the moment.

I think the money this would cost would be far better spend on education or other schemes to improve kids chances long before they get to 18.

originally posted by: Draculad
a reply to: BedevereTheWise

It is a gimmick and a desperate attempt to keep power. Multiple reasons for that.


It'll dilute the quality of a military that is already struggling. 1/4 of that time will be training. We haven't got the facilities to host the numbers. A significant percentage will fail basic training or the medical. Most of all do we really want the youth with military training and then being let loose on society with what'll be effectively 9 months of service?

Again consider the fact we wouldn't have the numbers to actually effectively train them. Don't get me wrong it's a brilliant idea for anyone with the idea the grass was greener in the past but they'd be people who hardly understand a professional army that's highly regulated, just recently their was a story about a woman being denied due to a 1.9% chance she'll have breast cancer before 30...

As for the 'volunteering' all I can do is laugh. It's either volunteering and the youth will sit and play on their phones or it's mandatory work placements. Neither will be anywhere near as affective as they'll make out to believe.

Best sort the NHS out before they even consider doing this. I'd be asking the older voters if they really want a bunch of crazy youths having access to weaponry or in roles within society close to home where they'll actually be required to do things that might actually cause a lot more trouble than it's worth if they're not done effectively.

The only incentive is money these days. We're skint... I'm sure this will change quite a few voters minds but the reality is nobody wants the youth working for them if they simply do not want to work, this will prove to be a massive headache imho.

Pretty much agree with all of that.

a reply to: gortex

I wanted to join the military and I was denied due to medical reasons. When the mandatory waiting time passed it was discovered I was a bit mental so couldn't join anyways...

The state of the youth is much worse now. Far too many wouldn't pass basic training or the medical. Unless we dilute the requirements, I hardly think the military itself will think fondly on basically scrapping it's professionalism.

Similar issues with the volunteering. Back when mandatory work places was a thing the place I was actually volunteering (2008 wrecked the economy) our workplace had a revolving door especially when it came to the youth and I would've considered the work they were asked to do basic and simple, they had the option to learn real trades but they couldn't do basic stuff...

I simply don't want lazy 18 year olds emptying my bins or doing work that actually needs to be done. Simple jobs they'll turn around and tell you in no polite terms to "go away" and that's not to belittle the youth or the workplace, I'm just saying a lot of thought needs to be put into place before something like this can happen.

I'm not even sure it's as much a manifesto as a warning of 'things to come'. Oliver Dowden (I think) recently told everyone to have at least 3 days food in the house. Allegedly, Sunak has said he doesn't want to be a "war-time PM".
As to National Service, Switzerland have a minimum of 21 week National Service, Greece have 9-12 months, Norway, Sweden, Israel, are a few others.
Rainbows
Jane

originally posted by: angelchemuel
I'm not even sure it's as much a manifesto as a warning of 'things to come'. Oliver Dowden (I think) recently told everyone to have at least 3 days food in the house. Allegedly, Sunak has said he doesn't want to be a "war-time PM".
As to National Service, Switzerland have a minimum of 21 week National Service, Greece have 9-12 months, Norway, Sweden, Israel, are a few others.
Rainbows
Jane

It's a good point that different countries have different models of national service.

Norway and Sweeden for example i believe are very selective about who they take, it ends up being the brightest and best who serve rather than 'feral drug dealing youth'.

a reply to: angelchemuel

We can have conscripts in a time of dire need when life is ultimately cheap.

We're not there yet.

Domestically speaking if we ever do get there our government has seriously failed. On an international level the nukes will probably fly.

All those nations have very robust 'socialism' or a military completely different than ours in terms of capability. We have a failing system after 14 years of Tories and we have a professional military that's small but highly effective at projecting power.

Just look to France, it doesn't appear Macron's "social cohesion" plan is working despite it being 100% voluntary.

originally posted by: Draculad
a reply to: angelchemuel

We can have conscripts in a time of dire need when life is ultimately cheap.

We're not there yet.

Domestically speaking if we ever do get there our government has seriously failed. On an international level the nukes will probably fly.

All those nations have very robust 'socialism' or a military completely different than ours in terms of capability. We have a failing system after 14 years of Tories and we have a professional military that's small but highly effective at projecting power.

Just look to France, it doesn't appear Macron's "social cohesion" plan is working despite it being 100% voluntary.

I think having a bigger pool of trained military reserves would be a great idea. Forcing reluctant 18 year old into military service isn't the way to achieve that.

a reply to: BedevereTheWise

Tories win the election. LoL

Maybe in a parallel universe.

As to the idea, its not that it's bad, but him and his crowd first methinks.

After all what good for the goose is good for the gander.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: BedevereTheWise

Tories win the election. LoL

Maybe in a parallel universe.

As to the idea, its not that it's bad, but him and his crowd first methinks.

After all what good for the goose is good for the gander.

It is a bit Rich , privileged 40+ with no military experience telling 18 year olds they need to serve.

a reply to: BedevereTheWise

Either requires a serious amount of change when it comes to the military.

National service would clog things up and accepting candidates that would normally be turned away would require an overhaul of how our military operates. The latter is certainly more achievable.

I totally agree with your thinking that the money this would cost would be better spent in the education system, I'd add that assisting parents would be a wise investment too. Then the next generation might actually be receptive to ideas like this, right now though it's a terrible idea. Especially when the majority of things are failing and waiting times are unprecedented for pretty much everything.

Personally I'd say teach the youth trade skills from 13 and incentivise our industries to take advantage of the capability young trained and hungry for money youths can offer.

Probably worth mentioning only the "best and brightest" would qualify for this national service rendering it absolutely pointless. They're young adults that already have good opportunities available, probably raised right etc etc.

25 days of volunteering... Yeah.

It's a gimmick. They're desperate.

a reply to: BedevereTheWise

Well, Rishi is not exactly ""one of us"".

He understands the plight of the common everyday man and woman and as much as he does Quantum physics.

But if my weans are going to be required and compelled to carry out national service.

So are his, and first to set an example no less.

originally posted by: gortex
At this point Sunak can promise anything without fear of having to implement it , I agree National Service should be a thing in this period of instability and the benefits of teaching young men how to be men would pay dividends when it comes to youth unemployment and anti-social behaviour , give them a trade then set them free until they're possible needed to defend our country.

When I saw this headline this morning it genuinely made me laugh, I thought who the hell is going to think that is a good idea and want to vote for that. And here you are. Caveat noted that Sunak has no legs at this point. But still, really?

However, you hooked me by planting the question - Why do men need to be taught how to be men? I agree that some people lack the basic skills to navigate life as we know it - but that isn't what you said. Is it perhaps what you meant?