Saudis pledge to buy 96 French Rafale jets

in that list of 4 aircraft - you have missed the Gripen , which therefore would make it 5

Originally posted by Harlequin
in that list of 4 aircraft - you have missed the Gripen , which therefore would make it 5

Ah you are correct.

I just want to point out two things:

First, the Rafale is NOT only a carrier aircraft, the "Armée de l'Air" is also using it as pure interceptor and as delivery system to launch their two long range guided missiles (an aircraft launched kind of tomahawk), APACHE (Anti-runway submunition system) and SCALP long range GPS-Inertial guided munition (all these acronyms are in french, sorry can't translate them exactly.)

ATM, only one of 3 squadrons have the rafale, the 12F, and the 11F will follow fully equipped in 2006. The last served will be the 17F. All these squads are in the "Aéronavale" and are due to be based either on *charles de gaulle* CVN class ships, or from ground bases. These squads will be equipped with the Rafale - M single seater marine type.
The air force will be equipped with Rafale - C (Single seater) and - B (double seater (not sure of the word in english, sorry).

So the Saudis could buy the Air Force variant, without arrestor hook, reinforced landing gear and so on.

Second point: It's too bad that no froggie could be on these forums and could explain us what is the way of thinking in France about exportations... Just remember though, that France already exported Mirages III to Israel, and also SNCASE Vautour and Nordatlas N-62 in the 60's... More recently, other countries have followed, like Taiwan for 2000's, India... the list is long... A large number of countries buy military material from France! United Arabs Emirates use the Leclerc as their Main battle tank, Brazil bought the ex-Clemenceau helicopter carrier and transformed it into an Aircraft carrier and uses it with A-4N, etc...

(Source: RAIDS mag (european mag about military, writed in french, sold in Canada, Switzerland, and other french speaking countries...))

Another last point: one year ago, our Swiss Air Force detached two F/A 18 hornet to train with Rafales - M from the 12F at Lahn-Bihoué, in France. After one week of training over the water, our pilots had to admit that those little rafales were nasty, very efficient in a2a combat and, even worse, that the frenchies were not using all their capacities, specially about their EBR radar...

All this summed up in one phrase:

The Rafale is a pretty good client, very dangerous, and it's capacities have not yet being entirely tested... So keep eye on this bird!!!

Originally posted by Element

All this summed up in one phrase:

The Rafale is a pretty good client, very dangerous, and it's capacities have not yet being entirely tested... So keep eye on this bird!!!

very good m8, and that is the exact reason that I do not think the Middle East is ready for that generation of aircraft.

The Rafale's were always hard to deal with in scenarios using the Harpoon series simulators.



Harpoon Series

Dear all,

I think there is a misconception here about the relative capabilities of the Rafale and the F-35.

The Rafale is a 4/5th gen Air Superiority aircraft whereas the JSF is a 4/5th gen CAS/SEAD machine

Therefore to state that the Israelis will acquire F-35 to counter Saudi Rafales is a mistake.

I feel, like others on here that potential IAF buys would be Rafale, Typhoon, Grifen or Raptor.

I would not be in the least bit surprised to see the first overseas customer for Raptor being the Israelis. IIRC they were the first overseas customers for the Eagle.

Cheers

BHR

The Israelis are not getting their hand no where near the Raptor any tie soon, the U.S. government does not trust them, they have currently been suspended form the F-35 project.
I think they should be happy were giving them F-35.
Besides when the Israelis got the F-15 there was something called the cold war going on. And as it stands right now the F/A-22 is only for the US.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The Israelis are not getting their hand no where near the Raptor any tie soon, the U.S. government does not trust them, they have currently been suspended form the F-35 project.
I think they should be happy were giving them F-35.
Besides when the Israelis got the F-15 there was something called the cold war going on. And as it stands right now the F/A-22 is only for the US.

I sure hope your right but if the tulipwalkers win, we won't have any either.

Nah... well get ours, I just don't want others to have it, check out the thread about the Raptor entering full production.

THis israeli exclusion i suspect will cause them to form tech ties with the french..And they could probably come up with a fighter of their own..6th gen I mean...
And both dont seem to have issues in dealing with China...

no, i have alot more faith in american aircraft, than french or russian aircraft. I am glad Israel got the boot. They have sold way too much technology to china.

^^^
Any reason for this soft corner for american aircraft?..
IMHO French and Russian aircraft, old and new, have matched and superceeded american aircraft until the F-22..
And the F-22 is unchallenged now only because of the break up of the USSR and
its money problems..
OR aircraft like the MiG 1.44 and the PAK-FA would have already hit the production lines by now..In more than one country..

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Dear all,

I think there is a misconception here about the relative capabilities of the Rafale and the F-35.

The Rafale is a 4/5th gen Air Superiority aircraft whereas the JSF is a 4/5th gen CAS/SEAD machine

Therefore to state that the Israelis will acquire F-35 to counter Saudi Rafales is a mistake.

I feel, like others on here that potential IAF buys would be Rafale, Typhoon, Grifen or Raptor.

JSF is better in everything except wing loading when compared to Rafale. And I highly douubt Israelies will buy F-22 because of it's price. It's still small country to buy 100mil.$ price. Plus there is China conection...
I think the only country that will get the F-22 could be Japan.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
And the F-22 is unchallenged now only because of the break up of the USSR and
its money problems..
OR aircraft like the MiG 1.44 and the PAK-FA would have already hit the production lines by now..In more than one country..

Are you sure? Su-27 for example was 12 years later than F-15. And the russians had only 90 of them until the end of cold war.

^^^ The cold war ended much before it "actually ended".. if you know what I mean..
The USSR was collapsing before grobachev came into power..
Infact gorbachev was put in place to try and solve these problems; political and economic..

The Su-27 role (when produced) was mainly in a bomber escort/anti ship role for the North Sea..i.e. to escort bombes to oil rigs of the north sea..
The mainstay backbone fighter was still the MiG-29..
Don't know how many of those they had by the end of the cold war though..

Originally posted by Daedalus3^^^ Any reason for this soft corner for american aircraft?..IMHO French and Russian aircraft, old and new, have matched and superceeded american aircraft until the F-22..

Notice the word SUPERCEDED.



er F-4




er F-14





er F-15




er F-16



Thanks I needed that laugh.







One other thing I would like to add, Isreal could not develop their own, they started the Lavi but only with US $$$.

[edit on 28-4-2005 by edsinger]

Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by Daedalus3^^^ Any reason for this soft corner for american aircraft?..IMHO French and Russian aircraft, old and new, have matched and superceeded american aircraft until the F-22..

Notice the word SUPERCEDED.

er F-4

er F-14

er F-15

er F-16
Thanks I needed that laugh.







One other thing I would like to add, Isreal could not develop their own, they started the Lavi but only with US $$$.

[edit on 28-4-2005 by edsinger]

Err... F-4 is IMO this most saddest plane developed ever..
THe USAF lost a lot of good pilots because of that plane..
F-16 is well equivalent to the MiG-29.. Germans who have both say the MiG's better.. the Mirage 2000 equalled the F-16 in specs...
F-14.. Good plane in its time still MiG 29s better and the MiG 29s also carrier launched..
F-15.. umm well let me just redierct you to the current Su30 vs F-15 threads.. or no wait go look from them yourself..
Plus I forgot the Jaguar.. Don't know its american equyivalent but it beats all planes of its class/vintage hollow (american or not)

F-14/15/16 weren't bad aircraft agreed..but the were never the best of their times..Maybe F-16 was one of the best.. its a gem of a plane IMHO...

But the F-4!!! What are you thinking!!

And you're welcome for the laugh..
Infact I should be thanking you..
Theres nothing funnier than seeing some one laugh in situations that require retrospection and logical thought..

"look.. this guy's comparing non-american aircraft to american ones and actually saying that the non-american ones could have been better in some cases!!
What should I do?.. should I do some research to see what he's talking about and maybe try and invalidate his claims??

Naw!!..You know what, I'll just ..just laugh!!
Yeah that's what I'll do .. LAUGH!!"

ATS motto "deny ignorance" dude.. Not "laugh in Ignorance"

Thank YOU for the laugh

[edit on 29-4-2005 by Daedalus3]

First,




THe F-4 was one of the greatest planes of the day and it can more than complete with the russian equivelent of the day , MiG21.

As a matter of fact, its dual use and upgrades see it still inservice almost everywhere it was sold, it was the choice in Wild Weasel aircraft in the USAF until the early to mid 90's.

The F-4 was a fantastic plane.



As for the Germans and the Mig29's, they are trying toget rid of them, they are not of the quality that western aircraft air, they are no longer in the German AirForce ar at least that was my understanding.



I laughed alright and even more so to the reply....Half the planes you quote as 'better' than the American counterpart came out many years after the American plane in which you speak and yet were still not better.

The only serious argument you had was the Jaguar, truly a fine design, the only thing I guess that we had close to it was the A6 and A7 and in some degree the F-4.

I heard the German MiG-29s had downgraded engines in order to lengthen engine lifespan so their T/W ratio is reduced.
Equipment wise I agree the US has been about par with the rest of the world until F-22
But personnel wise the US has been ahead of the game, pilots, commanders, etc.
Except for the ones that always make the "frendly" fire incidents!!

Good buy. The Rafale is one badass jet, IMO the most underrated of the new breed of fighters out there. I truly hope that the Rafale gets this order and also that it acquires the contract to equip the singapore airforce. Export successes like these are what the rafale needs to make it a successful project.

Anyone who underestimates the power of previous generations of US aircraft in their day are fools.... they could tangle with the soviets quite nicely. Same goes with Soviet aircraft, they were quite potent machines in their day when first released, though the west obviously has gotten a great advantage over the past 15 to 20 years with all the upgrade's that has not only extended the live's of the aircraft, but greatly increased their capability.

"You have voted edsinger for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month."

you get this for providing a good thread and not bashing the rafale coz its french. And coz you like the Harpoon series too

thanks,
drfunk

[edit on 29-4-2005 by drfunk]

Ah.. New topic..

F-4 vs. MiG 21..

Placing bets now...