Saudis pledge to buy 96 French Rafale jets

Well it seems Isreal will probably get Typhoons or even F-22's now....I am not sure what I think about this one.



Saudis pledge to buy French jets in €6bn deal
By Jean-Pierre Neu in Paris
Published: April 15 2005 03:00 | Last updated: April 15 2005 03:00

Saudi Arabia has agreed in principle to acquire up to 96 Rafale combat aircraft from France's Dassault Aviation for some €6bn, Les Echos, the FT's French sister newspaper, has learnt.

The agreement forms the cornerstone of a broader defence, security and industrial accord estimated to be worth up to €20bn ($26bn, £14bn) signed during a meeting in Paris yesterday between Jacques Chirac, French president, and Crown Prince Abdullah, Saudi Arabia's de facto ruler.

96 Rafale combat aircraft



Rafale, Dassault-Breguet

French next-generation fighter. France decided to developed its own fighter, rejecting the European EFA as too heavy for carrier use and too costly for export. Rafale is also a canarded delta, but has less angular lines than EFA. Extensive use was made of composite materials. Rafale A was the prototype, Rafale B is the two-seat version, Rafale C the single-seater, and Rafale M carrier fighter version. Four prototypes were flying in early 1997. Orders for 272 production aircraft for the French armed forces are expected.

France chose to produce the Rafale, which will begin operation in 1999, instead of the Eurofighter. The Rafale is lighter and smaller than the Eurofighter. It will be produced in three versions: Rafale M, Rafale C, and Rafale D. The M is the carrier version, with a spring-loaded nose wheel to help it into the air when launching. The C is a one-seater and the D it a somewhat stealthy version for the air force.



[edit on 15-4-2005 by edsinger]

Rafale's seem to be popular i think China may also be considering them too.

It makes sense for them. They are good planes, and cheaper then anything they could get from the US except the F-16.

On another note, Ed - why do you think that Isreal will now get Typhoons or Raptors?

I think Typhoon is a high-tech step up for the region that Europe just doesn't want to see happen.

I can't see Israeli Typhoons ever happening and despite the Saudi links to Britain's defence industry (the Al-Yamamah defence deal is one of the biggest ever) I couldn't see a Typhoon export deal there either (unless the old arrangement of the 'instructors' came back and they were the actual pilots.......oooops, not supposed to mention stuff like that huh?)
Ditto F22.

If the USA is serious about their worries about China I'd seriously think twice about letting the Israelis anywhere near an F22.....

.....but then again if they are trying to inflate China to some sort of potential credible 'enemy' figure maybe that's exactly what the war-perv crowd want and will do.

[edit on 15-4-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Hey,

Hmm, I suppose short of the Harrier, the Rafale is the only non-american western naval carrier equipped aircraft. I suppose if the Rafale is on the Chinese Shopping list, I suppose their only real value would be in their use on a carrier, I don't really see them using it for their air force due to the fact they have the J-10 coming off the production line, which I would rate in the same catorgory as the french machine.

I suppose they may think that the J-10 isn't strong enough for carrier operations and want a "Off the Shelf" buy.

- Phil

Well with the Saudis having the Rafael, the Israeli f-15C's become 2nd class although the pilot quality would make the difference.

Once a class of aircraft such as the Rafael gets to the Middle east, there are only 4 options to have equality.

Typhoon, Rafales, SU-30 series (maybe), and the F22.

Now which do you think the Israelis would want? I do not think they should get F-22's by any means, maybe a Air-2-Air version of the JSF could compete.

The point of this post, is that once again the French are attempting to swing the balance of power for profit.....They are opening a can of worms. Just like the Russians and the SU-30 purchase (with AAM's) for Malaysia. Then the others in the area demanded AMRAAM's.

I think the Israelis will eventually become JSF. There's no other(cheaper) plane that can significantly surpas Rafale. Typhoon is on the same level, I think. F-22 is highly unlikely, regarding both price and that it's USAF high teach toy.

Israel wont get the F/A-22 anytime soon because they are getting the F-35 which will be newer than the F-15 and it will be enough to keep the Israelis quiet. The Raptor is just to good to sell.
Also do the Saudis even have any carriers? If not they why do they want Rafale’s?

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Also do the Saudis even have any carriers? If not they why do they want Rafale’s?

I believe that was directed at the Chinese potential purchase of them.

Originally posted by gooseuk
Hey,

Hmm, I suppose short of the Harrier, the Rafale is the only non-american western naval carrier equipped aircraft. I suppose if the Rafale is on the Chinese Shopping list, I suppose their only real value would be in their use on a carrier, I don't really see them using it for their air force due to the fact they have the J-10 coming off the production line, which I would rate in the same catorgory as the french machine.

I suppose they may think that the J-10 isn't strong enough for carrier operations and want a "Off the Shelf" buy.

- Phil

The chinese currently do not plan to induct a carrier in their navy..

Hmm,

There has been a thread on ATS about the Chinese offically confirming that it has purchased the Vargyag from the people that hoped to convert it into a floating theme park.

I feel that they can't NOT employ this carrier in some means or form, as I mentioned in this thread:

www.belowtopsecret.com...

- Phil

No they cant but with the old HMS Melbourne and the Varagg they have gained valuable information to construct their own and 'rumor' has it they already are.

I have not seen the Satellite pictures, but there is a "covered" area that is in a shipyard that could easily have a 50k ship under construction.

The Chinese Navy wants to have at least 3 in service before 2012.






Phase 2 - New Construction


At present China has very little in the way of credible power-projection capabilities, though China can already project military forces superior to those that South-east Asian countries could deploy to the South China Sea. The PLA Navy has studied the acquisition of an aircraft carrier since the mid-1980s, and there are persistant reports that China has plans to launch a 40,000 ton class aircraft carrier by 2010, though these reports remain unsubstantiated and appear to based on woefully inadequate analysis and information.

While the navy has lobbied for a carrier for many years, their proposals have been overruled by the Central Military Commission. This decision may have been motivated by a desire not to be seen to be adding a major new capability to China's maritime forces, with consequent adverse regional reaction. From a purely military perspective, a Chinese aircraft carrier would be expensive to operate, and carrier would be vulnerable to attack by aircraft, fast surface vessels and submarines. An aircraft carrier could enhance China's ability to lay claim to the islands and coral atolls of the South China Sea, an area potentially rich in oil and other resources. And an aircraft carrier would make a potent political and diplomatic statement, potentially creating a major change in the strategic balance in East Asia. In 1992, the Chinese authorities reportedly authorized a program for studying the development of an aircraft carrier. Chinese leaders at various levels have done extensive feasibility studies on this project since then. In 1993, senior leaders of the Chinese Navy announced that China would start developing an aircraft carrier. In January 1993, Chinese political leaders decided to step up their carrier program and allocated several billion dollars for the project. At that time, China had planned to finish the first aircraft carrier by 2000, but the plan was delayed repeatedly due to lack of carrier technology. Eventually it was decided to advance the carrier program in two stages.



[edit on 15-4-2005 by edsinger]

Originally posted by edsinger
The point of this post, is that once again the French are attempting to swing the balance of power for profit.....They are opening a can of worms. Just like the Russians and the SU-30 purchase (with AAM's) for Malaysia. Then the others in the area demanded AMRAAM's.

sorry this to me is a total joke
the US does this more then any country ( and is the princible arms supplier to most developed countries that can afford the tec which swings the balnace in most places)

and i think this is great for saudi ( they really to much on US tec as it is which can be a draw back if the US starts a embargo or something on them )

China actually owns three carriers at the moment, two of the 48,000 tonne Kiev class (the Minsk and the Kiev). The Minsk was purchased in 1998 from South Korea, although it was gutted and placed under agreement that it wouldnt ever be used for military purposes. The Kiev was sold in 2000 under a scrapping contract which was later renegotiated to allow for tourism usage in china. The Varyag, a 67,500-ton Kuznetsov class carrier, was purchased in 1998 for tourism purposes.

So you have three extremely capable carriers in Chinese hands, even tho all three are under non military agreements, its a huge leap forward for Chinese designers who get to study tehm and essentially get a leg up on designing their first carrier.

Originally posted by bodrul

sorry this to me is a total joke
the US does this more then any country ( and is the princible arms supplier to most developed countries that can afford the tec which swings the balnace in most places)

and i think this is great for saudi ( they really to much on US tec as it is which can be a draw back if the US starts a embargo or something on them )

A joke? Oh really? Well if we were doing it just for profit without taking the intangibles into question, why did we not sell an AEGIS warship to Taiwan? Why did we offer the KIDD's instead?

Because , with the Purchase of the Sovermenys by the Chinese, the Balance of Power in the area was not seriously altered. An Aegis warship would be another issue all together as it would force the Chinese to counter and therefore accelerate the arms race there.


A joke? No.

Another Example, look at Latin and South America and the version of the F-16's they were allowed to by, they werent Blk52's now were they?

Originally posted by edsinger
A joke? Oh really? Well if we were doing it just for profit without taking the intangibles into question, why did we not sell an AEGIS warship to Taiwan? Why did we offer the KIDD's instead?

Because , with the Purchase of the Sovermenys by the Chinese, the Balance of Power in the area was not seriously altered. An Aegis warship would be another issue all together as it would force the Chinese to counter and therefore accelerate the arms race there.


A joke? No.

Another Example, look at Latin and South America and the version of the F-16's they were allowed to by, they werent Blk52's now were they?

still think its a joke
( that is you getting pissed at saudi purchasing french avionics )

what did the US give to isreal during the arab/isreali war that changed the balance in air power

and what about all those f-16s and so on that are given to all those countries

france have a right to sell what they want to who ever they want,
just like the US sell their's to who ever they want

ps my other reply was to do with saudi getting the fighters
dont know why you went off track on your own topic

Originally posted by edsinger


A joke? Oh really? Well if we were doing it just for profit without taking the intangibles into question, why did we not sell an AEGIS warship to Taiwan? Why did we offer the KIDD's instead?

Because , with the Purchase of the Sovermenys by the Chinese, the Balance of Power in the area was not seriously altered. An Aegis warship would be another issue all together as it would force the Chinese to counter and therefore accelerate the arms race there.


A joke? No.

Another Example, look at Latin and South America and the version of the F-16's they were allowed to by, they werent Blk52's now were they?

umm...
Well you're offering PAC -II/IIIs to India..
along with blk 70 F-16s..
and not to mention the F-18 E/F superhornets..
All this when India is still a major supporter/ally of Russia, and detestes major US non-NATO ally Pakistan..
The sales offered above will drastically change the balance of power in India's favour in the subcontinent..
Infact It will change the balance of power between India and China as well(who are at par on conventonal terms as of now)

In terms of an air to air platform, the Rafale is well beyond what the F-35 can provide with the exception of stealth and especially stealth combined with range. It's wing loading is very good and the engines are pretty good too, in the same thrust to weight class as the Raptors. A pretty good choice I say. Avionics wise the nod probably goes to the American jet but I don't expect that the F-35 has the gross maneuvering capacity that the Rafale or Eurofighter has.

Originally posted by MPJay
In terms of an air to air platform, the Rafale is well beyond what the F-35 can provide with the exception of stealth and especially stealth combined with range. It's wing loading is very good and the engines are pretty good too, in the same thrust to weight class as the Raptors. A pretty good choice I say. Avionics wise the nod probably goes to the American jet but I don't expect that the F-35 has the gross maneuvering capacity that the Rafale or Eurofighter has.

With the new supermaneuvring off boresight short range misilles (in combination with helmet targeting system) maneuvrability in dogfight plays almost no role. Also the modern misiles like Python cannot be cheated by flares because they have optical sensors too. Do you think any todays plane has chance to escape modern misilles able to pull 70-1000Gs? No chance.
Besides the JSF will be eventualy equipped with laser - if this turns out to be possible it will greatly improve it's close combat capabilities.

Ok let me try again -

F16's to India is not changing the balance of power, thy can already buy SU-30's etc.

I hate to say this as good as an F-16 is, it is not Rafale or Typhoon.

The Saudis by purchasing these 'next' generation aircraft will force the Israelis to counter.