Radionics (One last time)

I have posted numerous times on the subject of radionics, and I hardly ever had any replies or I was scoffed at. Even though I have used radionics with succes, people here still didn't believe me.

I'm gonna bring up the subject once again, for the last time. This mostly unknown and repressed material. The U.S. government is most probably using it. And there are people and organisations who are selling radionic products, software or hardware...

These machines are mostly orgone generators. Orgone is chi and you are able to use it in a variety of ways, mostly influencing the real world around you. There is research going on in orgonomy (the study of orgone energy)

Uses varies from treatment of disease, to cloudbusting. There are online communities, just like ATS, with members who use these radionic machines or build them themselves.


Anyway, here are some links:
www.orgone.org...
www.orgonelab.org...
www.ablecrystals.com...

www.gocs1.com...
groups.yahoo.com...
(In this groups there are some amazing succes stories posted in the last few days)
(software program with free version, I had succes with this one)


www.tifareth.com...
groups.yahoo.com...
(software program with free trail)


www.copenlabs.com...
www.uiowa.edu...

www.phact.org...
groups.yahoo.com...
groups.yahoo.com...
groups.yahoo.com...
www.radionics.org...

I personally know friends and "friends of friends" who use such radionic devices and they seem very convinced that they help them (medicinally).

All of them that I have met used such devices to help "purify" their blood... something about keeping copper levels down. I honestly can't comment further as at the time it wasn't the topic of conversation and to be honest I wasn't terribly interested.

The people basically wore a strap on their wrist that would emit a magnetic field (apparently).

I could be completely wrong and this has nothing to do with the concept of radionics but I hope my contribution is of interest.

So ok, you want an honest review of some of the stuff. I am a physicist and I am appaled by the use of the authorative non-argument. let me just review one of those sites:

www.ablecrystals.com...

All goes well in the first lines but here we go:

"Q: How Do the Beamer Products Produce This Energy Field?

A: Knowledge of Quantum Physics would assist in understanding the Beamer products."

Ok so, show me the formulas for this particular systems. Preferably the Schrodinger equation with the exact form of the potentials and a preferably analytical solution. Eigenvalues and eigenfunctions would be appreciated as well. But I guess I'm not going to be provided with those.

So let's just read on:

"The Beamer Is a free energy Device. Nicola Tesla, a great physicist,(responsible for the whole understanding of alternating current electricity) was creating what were called free energy Devices in the 1930's. These are Devices that can produce a current by utilizing natural energy sources. They are called "free" because they do not need an outside source such as batteries or wires to make them work."

Ow wow, this is great stuff. Clear violation of several laws of thermodynamics, especially the second law which states that no device can continue to exert work forever without losing energy to the outside world. Read the thread on free energy, and again, please supply me with formulas and proof that this is indeed working.

So what do we have here in my opinion: An apparatus with very nice design(geometrical shapes are so esthetically pleasing!!) and marketing angle, but no science in that part. I again, as with the free energy thread, eagerly await the theoretical proof, including all formulas etc. If I hear no such thing, I'll assume its a hoax device that is sold to ignorant people that believe enough in such devices for the placebo effect to happen.

Look, I'm no physicist... But I've seen enough posts made by people just like you and me who have bought the beamer and say that it's working. People just like you and me, on different message boards. And that, to me is more important that waiting on scientists to find scientific proof whether in formula's, or of it working.
I'm not going to wait on cnn or discovery channel to say it works, especially since I've already used radionics with success (to help me pass a test and remote influencing an athlete).

Look for a post here (you probably have to join the group first) with the subject title "It works!" (post # 890)


Point is, this has been neglected by much of the scientific community, especially those in the U.S. But there are studies going on in radionics and orgonomy.

And we don't know everything yet... It probably doesn't even violate the laws of thermodynamics, because it still uses a source, it just translates one form of energy into another (One form of energy that science still doesn't know that much about, more here). There is no energy just popping out of nowhere.

This is another website...
cybershaman.xaper.com...

This is an interesting paper. The law of thermodynamics is also being discussed. Read down from THE DISCOVERY OF ORGONE ENERGY...

www.uiowa.edu...

Simon, could you ask your friends, which specific machine they're using? And if they bought them or built them themselves???


And here's another story about the orgone beamer and how to build it... (P.s: the authors of this page could fit right in here at ATS...)
educate-yourself.org...

If there is energy, there should be the possibility of energy transfer, i.e. heating. And to measure that you would have to use a calorimeter(Which Reich seemingly did not do). Remember the guys that predicted cold fusion?? They also screwed up on that part in major ways. I know, cause I read the book about it. "Bad Science" by Idon'tquiteremembertheguysname.

Nevertheless it could be true. But you know what the problem is with this article: it follows the wrong scientific approach. It fails to disprove "normal" theory in the first place, and is mainly based on "claims", I don't see any actual data there. So eliminate the loopholes and you're in the clear. First disprove "normal" science, exclude it all using scientific methods, then hypothesize. Most of the stuff I read here is the other way around.

And also on the people that it works for: None of the normal checks. It's like one of those new diets that are being advertised. Guaranteed to make you lose 10 pounds in less then a week. Show me data on three group of people:

-People that have not received an orgone device
-People that have received an orgone device
-People that have received a non-functioning device but are told that it's functioning.

Why do I ask for this. Because my hunch says this is a very clear case of placebo.

Which doesn't of course say that these devices don't work, but not in the way advertised

That's the problem... Can a placebo cause you to get $2000 dollars in a very unusual way???

Can a placebo cause a baseball player, who doesn't even know you exist, play amazingly good starting exactly the day you used a radionics program on him? (that's what I did)

Anyway, there are more articles... I'll see if I can find one with the actual experiments...

That's exactly why you do a placebo test, because you value the positive experiences more then the negative.


A quick test would be to tune your orgone device to the worst odd in tomorrows horse run, bet all your money on that and see if that works....catch my drift??

Lol, all while I'm not even interested in horse races... But it's not an orgone device that I use, it's a program... Cyber Shaman. And it depends heavily on your ability to focus on what you want to happen, apparently what it does is enhances the energy level of your thoughts, that is what is claimed, which now goes way beyond conventional science.

The guy who claimed he got $2000 out of the blue, used cyber shaman, plus....... You guessed it!!! The orgone beamer. I think it increased his ability to focus and his energy level.

Anyway, I found these, but they're still just a listing of the articles... But it's more info
www.orgonomicscience.org...

P.S: Do you work at Universiteit Utrecht, ???

[Edited on 24-7-2003 by TheBandit795]

And more...


WHAT IS ORGONE ENERGY?

by Charles R. Kelley, Ph.D.

www.orgone.org...

Well,

I guess no website is going to provide the sort of proof that I'm looking for. My preliminary(!!) conclusion is that it is a placebo effect with high probability, but the claims warrants some further investigation, mostly into whatever literature Reach has produced.

And I don't have the time, nor the access to those materials, so unfortunately, I'm not going to try to debunk this as I had hoped.

I'm not at the UU btw, I'm at an institute in Nieuwegein.

That's a good thing... That shows that you're a real scientist and not a pseudo skeptic...

I was last in Nieuwegein a year ago.. I used to to UU (pharmacy) Went gebouw or something like that (I can't remember the name), '98/'99. Hated the study, especially because it was not what I wanted to do anyway. (uitgeloot voor geneeskunde).

Devil's Advocate here. The article is taking theories (such as Tesla actually being successful with a free energy device), and stating them as facts.

Look, I'm no physicist... But I've seen enough posts made by people just like you and me who have bought the beamer and say that it's working.

It isn't the devices that are working...it's their minds. A. You start to look for "evidence" that they're working...things that may have always occurred, but might not have been obvious, as they weren't looked for. B. Placebo is a known effect. Many also believe that you can influence the world around you (and in you) through sheer will. I would believe this before believing that some have somehow utilized a force that A. may not even exist, and B. they don't understand even if it did.

It's:
WHAT would it feel like

Also, you have two sentences there which should be ONE.
"have been making. And as you are reading..."
should be:
"have been making, and as you are reading..."
(NOT A NEW SENTENCE THERE).

Sorry man, it's just bugging me.



I think what you're doing is something called the process of Affirmation. You're using mind over matter to 'force' the outcome of things around you. Some people believe that if you focus on something long wnough and hard enough you can make it happen (to a degree anyway). Of course they also say that if you look for something hard enough you'll find it everywhere. I do this a lot, but I don't necessarily believe in it, it just seems to work for me (more of an obsessive compulsive thing for me I guess). I also don't try to make people win races or anything though, so...

Actually there is some good imperical data that EM transmissions do have some medical/genetic effects.

A Russian geneticist did a series of experiments in the 1980s where he attempted to transmit genetic data into embryos, with some success. One of his experiments involved reducing the genetic code of a duck into a wave form and transmitting it at ELF/ULF frequencies into a fertile chicken egg. When it hatched, it was found to be a legitimate genetic cross between a chicken and duck.

I have the book where this study was published at home. I will post it on DR when I get home.

Gazrok, if you've read my posts in the past year, you'll see that I also think that we influence the world around with our minds. But you need focus and energy to have a lasting effect and our minds are not trained for that. Especially in the western society. Most people can't concentrate on one thought for 20 seconds...

That's why these machines are helpfull. The help pinpoint your concentration and they help in increasing the enrgy of your thoughts and focus. If we all had supertrained minds and incredible focusing abilities, radionics would not be needed.

Originally posted by Greyhaven
It's:
WHAT would it feel like

Also, you have two sentences there which should be ONE.
"have been making. And as you are reading..."
should be:
"have been making, and as you are reading..."
(NOT A NEW SENTENCE THERE).

Sorry man, it's just bugging me.

Hehe.. I had it like that, but I changed it...

I think what you're doing is something called the process of Affirmation. You're using mind over matter to 'force' the outcome of things around you. Some people believe that if you focus on something long wnough and hard enough you can make it happen (to a degree anyway). Of course they also say that if you look for something hard enough you'll find it everywhere. I do this a lot, but I don't necessarily believe in it, it just seems to work for me (more of an obsessive compulsive thing for me I guess). I also don't try to make people win races or anything though, so...

Read my last post before this one...

Irondragon:

I'm familiar with some of the ELF results. The brain and nervous system is also apparently very perceptive of those things. These are very interesting things, and I would like to encourage you to post on that whatever you find. However, I would to point out that we are talking orgone energy and radionics here.

TheBandit795:

With how much certainty can we exclude still the placebo effect. I mean, I know from my youth that I often prayed to pass test, promised to be a good boy, etc. etc. And the result was always good. However, there is no way of knowing whether stuff wouldn't have happened if I wouldn't have done that.

Same again will go for the heavy concentration thing. Try and prove it. I think you will see a mediocre effect, but it also depends on what you are hoping for as an effect. Suppose I say that I will focus on Armstrong winning the Tour de France, that is like putting the bar real low. It's easily achievable.

Thing is, this is human psychology as well. Not exactly my best subject, but a clean proving(SCIENTIFIC!!! ) test will prove to be rather hard I think, as you need to control a lot of variables.

Can I btw take it from your previous post that you are also not convinced of a physical underground for these devices??

thank you guys for an entertaining discusion so far, I'm boring my a-hole off here in the lab

[Edited on 24-7-2003 by Devils Advocate]