Alabama court rules frozen embryos are children, chilling IVF advocates

originally posted by: Threadbarer
Then go move to Vatican City if you want to live in a Catholic theocracy.

Sookiechacha asked a question .. who was protecting the unborn children.
I answered it. The Catholic Church.
Your snide comment is out of place.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

Says who? Nice platitude you got there, but it doesn't apply to born children living in Gaza, or starving in Uganda or those who are lingering at our southern border, having escaped the cartels.

Tell me you've run out of road without telling me you've run out of road......

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: JinMI

What I said was that the poster was opening up the argument for it.

There is no argument for something that doesn't and cannot exist.

So we can't count you among folks who explore ideas.

Therefore the entire premise of a hypothesis is suspended.

Thanks for once again advocating for your version of "science."

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
No, that process has been halted. They a frozen. There is no change in hell of them developing, unless and until they are thawed out and successfully implanted into a womb.

They are pre-born. They aren't even implanted. They reside in a frozen slurry in glass tube in a vault.

They are preborn children. Their development is happening. Humans interrupt that development. That doesn't make them less human. They aren't cells from horse #. They are preborn humans.

Says who? Nice platitude you got there, but it doesn't apply to born children living in Gaza, or starving in Uganda or those who are lingering at our southern border, having escaped the cartels.

Deflection. Separate issues. Start threads on them if you like.

a reply to: JinMI

Okay, lol

every life is important.

Yeah right. Tell me you've run outta road, without telling me you've run outta road.

Tell it to the children and the pregnant women, and the doctors holding down the hospitals being bombed in Gaza. Every life is important, my ass!

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
Tell it to the children and the pregnant women, and the doctors holding down the hospitals being bombed in Gaza. Every life is important, my ass!

- Hospitals aren't being bombed.
- Tell Hamas and the Palestinians to respect life and it wouldn't be happening to them.
- Your deflection is noted. Yeah .. you ran out of road.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: JinMI

Okay, lol

every life is important.

Yeah right. Tell me you've run outta road, without telling me you've run outta road.

Tell it to the children and the pregnant women, and the doctors holding down the hospitals being bombed in Gaza. Every life is important, my ass!

Again with your strawmen.


If you had an actual argument you'd make one more germane to the topic.


But you don't.

a reply to: FlyersFan

They are preborn children.

]
Just stop.
They would have to be in a womb to even be close to being considered pre-born. Frozen, in a vault is not anywhere close to being classified as pre-born.

That doesn't make them less human.

Is anyone claiming them to be frog embryos? However, they are not children, they are not infants, they aren't even fetuses, to get all scientific.

Deflection.

Exactly what planting your flag on a mountain of empty platitudes, like every life is important is deflection and fallacy.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
They would have to be in a womb to even be close to being considered pre-born. Frozen, in a vault is not anywhere close to being classified as pre-born.

They are preborn humans.

Is anyone claiming them to be frog embryos? However, they are not children, they are not infants, they aren't even fetuses, to get all scientific.

They are preborn humans.

a reply to: JinMI

My argument with you is, there is no such thing as post-birth abortions.

My argument with Flyers Fan is that frozen embryos are not in the process of developing, they are not pre-born humans because there is no guarantee any of them will be thawed or successfully implanted, let alone survive till birth in the womb.

Most do not.

Using some fallacy appealing to some moral authority, claiming all life is important, is blatant hypocrisy.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

My argument with you is, there is no such thing as post-birth abortions.

Which I've not claimed.


So then we're good?

a reply to: FlyersFan

You need a warm womb to be born. Frozen embryos don't have one. They are not "pre-born", no matter how many time you swear it's true. It's not.

Most of them won't ever be viable, let alone born.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
Using some fallacy appealing to some moral authority, claiming all life is important, is blatant hypocrisy.

You believe preborn humans aren't human and can be flushed.
I state that they are indeed human and that they are important.
Because that's what they are.

Human life is important. Every life lost is tragic.
That's why IVF is so evil. It's a slaughter. Absolute carnage.

a reply to: FlyersFan

You believe preborn humans aren't human and can be flushed.

Now you're lying about me.

I never claimed a human embryo isn't human. I never said anything about flushing anything.

A frozen embryo isn't pre-born. Like I said, to be born, one needs a womb. A frozen embryo aint got one.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
Now you're lying about me.

Nope. That's exactly what they do to these preborn children. Kill them.

I never claimed a human embryo isn't human.

I never said 'human embryo'.
I said preborn human.
But glad to see you acknowledge that these preborn children are human beings.
That's a step in the right direction.
And now if only you would agree that humans all deserve to be treated with dignity.
Then we will be on a roll.

Like I said, to be born, one needs a womb. A frozen embryo aint got one.

One is waiting for them. And the fact that they aren't in it yet doesn't mean they are less than human and should be treated in a less than dignified manner.

A frozen embryo isn't pre-born

Yes .. he or she is.
Just like in a natural birth, some make it and some don't.
But they are all pre-born humans.

a reply to: FlyersFan

That's exactly what they do to these preborn children. Kill them.

Get some perspective. They are not children. They aren't even fetuses. They aren't pre-born. They aren't developing. They are frozen, suspended in time.

They are destroyed by being unfrozen. They simply have no means of survival on their own, without herculean intervention, the same herculean intervention that created them in the first place.

But glad to see you acknowledge that these preborn children are human beings.

No, I didn't say that either. Human and a human being are two different things. I don't see an human embryo as a human being. It is a human embryo, but a human being is born, in my opinion.

a reply to: FlyersFan

And if that's your belief then don't do IVF. That's completely in your right. However, a government actor, in this case a judge, should not be forcing their religious beliefs on an entire state.

a reply to: FlyersFan

IMO IVF is a unique case as the potential life wouldn't exist without it and the embryos are held in effective suspended animation where a boltzman brain/random assortments of particles have far more chance of becoming self concious human life until remove from stasis by being replanted in a human womb - most wont survive the way but everyone is an additional life that would not have occured.

EDIT: Not meant as a dig, just like exploring such ideas and hearing opinion contrary to my own and cryostasis/cryogenic freeding opens up a lot of really nerdy/bizare physics of entropy/probability.

What I find interesting about this case;

The mothers involved have chosen to believe their fertilized embryos are in fact human children.

Yet many who normally support a women's right to choose for themselves when life begins; are now suggesting that the fertilized embryos are in fact not what the woman involved have choosen them to be.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Can I play an advocate/strawman position?

They are unborn children in the way the Svalbard Seed Vault is billions of unsprouted plants. We are mostly dichotic eukaryotes is this web called multicellular life.



That's how I see it. Frozen human seeds with the potential to grow into humans. Potential life purposely kept in stasis denied the opportunity.

If new life begins at fertilization, pollen/ovule, sperm/ovum, I literally eat life for breakfast. Everything Bagels are amazing and those are covered with unrealized life.

They are both 'fertilized seeds' lacking the environment and nutrients to develop and kept from doing so.

What makes one biological seed in stasis more important than another?

And yes I know it's really hard to compare a human to a sunflower, but it seems only HUMAN life matters. And as special creatures all other life on earth is on a lower tier we can do whatever to. Even though they are smart enough to learn our bartering systems.

A frozen human embryo is in need of explicit protection while a Rhesus monkey can be tortured for pharmaceuticals? Alabama's life sanctity must not apply to their animal testing labs.

I think "All life is important" needs an asterisk that denotes "all life" only applies to a single species in the domain Eukarya, because it was advanced enough to come up with a taxonomic system.