Does anyone else get the sense that something downright miraculous might be up ahead?

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Venkuish1

"Do you want me to prove there is no flying spaghetti monster and invisible space unicorns?"

You can't. Because they are real.

Trust me, I have "special knowledge".

Etc.

You'll now get a following of the gullible crazy 'special' people with their 'special' knowledge and 'special' imaginary invisible friend!!

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Venkuish1

"Do you want me to prove there is no flying spaghetti monster and invisible space unicorns?"

You can't. Because they are real.

Trust me, I have "special knowledge".

Etc.

I trust you.

originally posted by: Kurokage

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Venkuish1

"Do you want me to prove there is no flying spaghetti monster and invisible space unicorns?"

You can't. Because they are real.

Trust me, I have "special knowledge".

Etc.

You'll now get a following of the gullible crazy 'special' people with their 'special' knowledge and 'special' imaginary invisible friend!!

Revelations!

Religious 'knowledge' and 'wisdom' are revealed. No public announcements ever recorded in the history of mankind.

a reply to: Venkuish1

There's one born every minute...

a reply to: Kurokage

Sorry.....had to:

youtu.be...

originally posted by: Terpene
No i did not read his books nor am I familiar with his methods, but sounds like an interesting character...

He started having spontaneous OBEs and then created an institute to study the phenomenon. In his books he mainly talks about the OBEs he has had and some of the info he had gathered from them.

I find it interesting because it is somewhere between theism and atheism.

In this "story" the creator isn't the creator of the universe, just someone who found a planet to seed. They also don't have a personal relationship with their creation. It made me think of homebrewers who, of course, provide the optimal conditions for their yeast to create whatever beer, wine or mash they are after, but it isn't like they are caring and/or judging each individual yeast cell. They are just after the end product.

The oddest thing is how he comes across the information. It is one of many brochures made available on a space cruise where the last stop is a visit to earth.

It does sound out there, which is why I always recommend at least a pinch of salt.

So every 3 to 6 months we get a "Can you feel it?" type garbage thread like this. Did anything ever come of the other 200 or so similar threads or is this another chance for yall to blow empty platitudes at each other some more?

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

isn't 'deception' the real reason you cited 'Michael S Heiser'...?

the great correction / which is called a 'Period of Chastisement" which is set loose upon humanity (for all their 'sins' committed under influence of 'the Great Deception' ?)

I may be incorrect but isn't the 3-days-of-darkness a part of the Chastisement ?

that intervention by the Supernatural might be what your sixth sense is telling your intellectual mind, to expect

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: chr0naut

I can't speak for the person you were arguing with, but I certainly can, and the explanation is precisely the one you adduce. In fact, I think you and I may have had this discussion before. Perhaps it was on this thread.

I shan't go into it all again here (it would be off topic) but yes, it is quite easy to explain the evolution of morals. Meanwhile, simple observation easily confirms that morality is indeed innate, part of the survival-kit of a social species. The priest-caste merely co-opted and elaborated our instinctive moral sense, turning it into the basis of their age-old devil's bargain with the rulers of human societies.

While that topic thread is one to which I was highly likely to contribute, I was unable to locate any post of mine while skipping through it. So, it may well have been that I did not see any of your arguments in that thread?

But aside from that, you have already granted that morality appears to be innate, but that same sense of rightness or wrongness of an attitude or action has been the cause of a desire for retribution. This desire for retribution, has in turn, led to nearly every murder and revolution and war.

In a primitive sense, while there is abundance, people are willing to share access to resources, and therefore there are fewer instances perceived as 'wrong' against a person. However, when times are hard, and, say, a food or water source is in short supply, one person is likely to feel that someone else has taken their 'stuff' and that desire for retribution, and the fact that they are removing a competitor seems to be a survival response. However the underlying problem of famine and/or drought is not resolved and the survivor may not be one, in the very short term.

We know that we are an intelligent species and have the capability to cooperate to build resilience against drought and famine, so in our case, the short term retributive actions are not our strongest survival option, in that very primitive scenario.

However in the instance of resource shortage and large groups, tribes, states and nations, this retributive response becomes an even greater liability.

As retribution is usually directed specifically against the human species, it is clear that the 'moral compass' has overall and in practice been a major selection pressure against the survival of our 'selfish genes', not for it.

So, firstly, it is innate. Secondly, it more frequently does not work in the 'direction' we might anticipate.

So, why have we all got it (and strongly) and where did it come from?

Well, whether you’ve been hanging around ats or following Art Bell since way back, this has been the ever engaging issue, hasn’t it. The Quickening, anyone?

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

What I feel in endless discussions like these is that people - on both sides - appear somewhat frustrated because no Godly interventions occurred so far in their very own lives, or in this world. In which they all suffer to some sort of degree.

Despite all
the (countless) predictions,
the (countless) premonitions and
the (countless) conspiracies...

which tingle our patience over and over again, and again...


Don't we all need some kind of spiritual delivery in our lives?

Don't we all struggle in our search for possible solutions?

Don't we all feel the disappointment when all the good advices didn't seem to work out?

Don't we all experience the anger towards God?


I sure do.

So far my sermon.
You may now arise and go out in peace.

a reply to: Venkuish1

Then again everything you belive to be a reality is constructed by some electromagnetic signals, in a place deep inside the brain...

No light has ever reached the place where your reality is created, no smell, no sound, no feeling.

You belive in it, but can you proof it beyond your own perception?
reality is a construct of your mind, you just don't trust any other senses than the ones you know of.
it's probably the healthier path, if you don't know what you're dealing with.

What do you consider intuition or gut feelings?
whats with feelings in general?

Do you dismiss it as self manipulation or is there a scientific explanation?

Have you ever felt love or fear, does it feel like a chemical reaction triggered by a thinking process of the brain?

Why are they felt in certain areas more than others?

Does a scientific explanation negate any subjective perception?

a reply to: daskakik

If that becomes our reality without further information the discussion would just be outsourced and science would be at square one.
Although at first it might seem that their theory is debunked, in the long run it would probably play into the creationist hand.
Now the true source of life would be up to impossible to research...

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

God saves those who save themselves. Sitting around waiting for God to save us will result in death. Not because there is no God, but because we are Gods tools we have to take action and he makes up the difference.

originally posted by: Venkuish1
a reply to: chr0naut

Let me ask you again because you are dancing around religious beliefs and faith and have already said your arguments are based on religious apology (good you have admitted it).

Do you know of any physical end biochemical processes that have supernatural causes? Let me help you by saying we know none in science.

Saying that 'science doesn't know' is an argument from ignorance, isn't it?



You see, science is good at describing the things science knows about, and we call the things science knows about 'natural'. It is a powerful tool, but you don't use a crowbar to spray-paint your car.

And we do have historic examples where science has been used to do other things like direct ethics, or drive politics. In one particular instance, it led to the Holocaust.

The things science does not know about, are outside of nature - they are supernatural.

Being supernatural does not mean they cannot exist or are just fantasies.

There are many things that exist and science cannot explain and many things that were once though of as supernatural, now have natural explanations and that is because of science.

However, in answer to your repeated question, one that stands out to me is that photosynthesis works, and works well. But the transfer efficiency of energy from where it is collected, to where it is utilized is somewhat of a mystery.

The various calculated outcomes (one of which, for example, is a 26% transfer efficiency) are way way lower than the observed transfer efficiencies (which are nearly 100%), and everyone is still trying to come up with explanations why. If a natural explanation is not found, then the process is supernatural (i.e: it does not fit the gamut of things with a natural explanation).

An investigation into the energy transfer efficiency of a two-pigment photosynthetic system using a macroscopic quantum model

What makes you think our universe has been created by some supernatural force? What evidence is there?

The fact that its existence has no rigorous natural explanation. Therefore the origin must be outside of what has been explained by natural phenomena. It is supernatural.

You made a statement earlier that even in your soul you going evidence. Let me remind you that you don't get to choose what evidence is.

Then neither do you. So stop denying what I hold up as evidences: the circumstantial, the subjective and even some objective evidences, such as those that exist in the non-emergent integrated structures of mathematics and physics.

Feelings and beliefs don't constitute evidence and the 'soul' is an invention used extensively by religious people. No evidence exist for the existence of the soul.

So, you are saying that you are soulless?

LOL

I think you are actually confusing spirit and soul, although I can understand the confusion of someone who is in denial about half of our existence.

Our soul is our intellectual and cognitive 'person'. It is not supernatural. To use a weak metaphor, our soul is the 'program' running on the 'computing device' of our brain.

Our spirit is the non-corporeal equivalent of our body, and is the supernatural part of us. It also embodies our soul (or its direct analogue). Think of it as a redundant back-up, stored in another, less volatile, media.

It looks you create even more problems for your arguments when you make reference to further religious concepts for which there is zero evidence they are true.

Funny, I have no problem with them?

It seems that you are the one saying there is no evidence, in denial of the evidences I claim.

originally posted by: Venkuish1
a reply to: chr0naut

Remember what I said in my earlier posts. You seem to be avoiding this part of the conversation.

You can't ask others to prove a negative for example that your creator doesn't exist.

Did someone ask you to prove that?

Your whole case that you presented unbidden, was that there was no evidence.

And why anyone will try to disprove the existence of a flying spaghetti monster in the first place? The burden of proof is on the claimant and so to the religionists who assert the existence of their creator and their supernatural reality.

Gödel's incompleteness theorems tells us there is more than we can ever know. That the supernatural must exist outside of what can be explained naturally.

Simply put it, there is no evidence for the existence of this supernatural reality, God, demons/angels, life after death. Zero evidence! The entire premise of you arguments rely on religious faith and beliefs.

I have presented evidence.

Resuscitated people who were dead by every criteria, have none the less been brought back to life. And they aren't blank slates just 'merely living' without personality or cognition, they are the same people!

Due to the wonders of modern medicine and technology, the human 'person' sometimes survives death. Have you considered what that implies?

There IS life after death. The 'person' survives the death of body. Provably.

Such resuscitations are now frequent and commonplace, whereas in previous centuries, dead was just dead.

And the other weird thing is a lot of them describe stuff that they shouldn't have been able to hear or to understand, since brain activity had ceased.

And when did they collude to get their stories straight?

You do realize that the Bible does not have one mention of going into a dark tunnel outside of the body at death. It's not like that is some function of Christian religious indoctrination. I'm pretty sure it's also not in the Koran, either. Not too sure about other faiths, though.

originally posted by: Fairlite
a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

God saves those who save themselves. Sitting around waiting for God to save us will result in death. Not because there is no God, but because we are Gods tools we have to take action and he makes up the difference.

I find it rather difficult to save myself. I know it's somehow possible but from time to time, it feels like I must have divine powers to achieve my goals. Especially after trauma.

I have to accept that I do not possess these powers, but I can always pray to God and ask him to bless me with his strength.

Not that I always feel his guidance, but I do know he is always there. For everyone.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Don't expect anything to happen; too many prophecies have gone down the drain on my account. As our mortal bodies will one day part from our immortal souls due to whatever cause, I'll receive that great reset and a reincarnated body to leap into the future and start over, aiming to get it right this time around

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Venkuish1
a reply to: chr0naut

Let me ask you again because you are dancing around religious beliefs and faith and have already said your arguments are based on religious apology (good you have admitted it).

Do you know of any physical end biochemical processes that have supernatural causes? Let me help you by saying we know none in science.

Saying that 'science doesn't know' is an argument from ignorance, isn't it?

You see, science is good at describing the things science knows about, and we call the things science knows about 'natural'. It is a powerful tool, but you don't use a crowbar to spray-paint your car.

And we do have historic examples where science has been used to do other things like direct ethics, or drive politics. In one particular instance, it led to the Holocaust.

The things science does not know about, are outside of nature - they are supernatural.

Being supernatural does not mean they cannot exist or are just fantasies.

There are many things that exist and science cannot explain and many things that were once though of as supernatural, now have natural explanations and that is because of science.

However, in answer to your repeated question, one that stands out to me is that photosynthesis works, and works well. But the transfer efficiency of energy from where it is collected, to where it is utilized is somewhat of a mystery.

The various calculated outcomes (one of which, for example, is a 26% transfer efficiency) are way way lower than the observed transfer efficiencies (which are nearly 100%), and everyone is still trying to come up with explanations why. If a natural explanation is not found, then the process is supernatural (i.e: it does not fit the gamut of things with a natural explanation).

An investigation into the energy transfer efficiency of a two-pigment photosynthetic system using a macroscopic quantum model

What makes you think our universe has been created by some supernatural force? What evidence is there?

The fact that its existence has no rigorous natural explanation. Therefore the origin must be outside of what has been explained by natural phenomena. It is supernatural.

You made a statement earlier that even in your soul you going evidence. Let me remind you that you don't get to choose what evidence is.

Then neither do you. So stop denying what I hold up as evidences: the circumstantial, the subjective and even some objective evidences, such as those that exist in the non-emergent integrated structures of mathematics and physics.

Feelings and beliefs don't constitute evidence and the 'soul' is an invention used extensively by religious people. No evidence exist for the existence of the soul.

So, you are saying that you are soulless?

LOL

I think you are actually confusing spirit and soul, although I can understand the confusion of someone who is in denial about half of our existence.

Our soul is our intellectual and cognitive 'person'. It is not supernatural. To use a weak metaphor, our soul is the 'program' running on the 'computing device' of our brain.

Our spirit is the non-corporeal equivalent of our body, and is the supernatural part of us. It also embodies our soul (or its direct analogue). Think of it as a redundant back-up, stored in another, less volatile, media.

It looks you create even more problems for your arguments when you make reference to further religious concepts for which there is zero evidence they are true.

Funny, I have no problem with them?

It seems that you are the one saying there is no evidence, in denial of the evidences I claim.

You misunderstood what I asked you as usual. Tell me what physical or biochemical processes have supernatural causes given that you believe the origin of the universe has a supernatural cause.

I didn't say 'science doesn't know' but I clearly said we know there is none which has supernatural causes. You are the one who is making the arguments from ignorance attributing anything we don't know to God just like the old times.

Again you failed to give me an example. Photosynthesis doesn't have a supernatural cause (not even creationists believe it) and the origin of the universe is not some form of God despite your very flawed logic and claims that science doesn't have a definite answer on a number of areas where there is plenty of research at the moment.

You may want to give it a go at NASA and the various universities next time arguing that the current research in the origins of the universe is futile because you are other creationists have Jesus in your heart.

The fact you call matters we don't know yet or we haven't found a definitive answer as 'supernatural' shows the confusion of your arguments and the mistake people have repeated throughout history. According to you then everything unknown must be attributed to supernatural causes. Going back a few hundred years what people were calling 'supernatural' turned out not to be that way after all. Everything had a natural cause as science evolved and we had better knowledge and understanding of the world and of natural phenomena.

Beliefs and feelings don't constitute evidence and you don't get to choose what evidence is (I am repeating this). You need to look up what evidence is according to the standards of science and research.

There is no evidence for the existence of the supernatural world, God, demons and angels, like after death. That's not debatable but a fact. I am not asserting beliefs but stating facts. If you really have evidence for the claims you made then it's best if you present them so there could be under the usual scientific scrutiny and see if they pass the major checkpoints.

But as always there is nothing other than beliefs and feelings.

a reply to: Kurokage

This thread reminds me so much of the Origins and Creation Forum, same bunch of half wits, and dullards that star each other and try to squeeze out anyone who talks truth to them. You operate much like Hyena's circling their prey or injuns surrounding a covered wagon, whoop whoop, whoop ... difference is I have respect for hyena's and Indians.

Fact is! .. if the other half dozen or so cultists where not here, non of you would be starred at all because you all spout the same unproven mantra and present it as though they were facts.

I have a theory about the mental state of many of you here, I am sure some of you have heard this before.

Atheists and the like, are mentally challenged, simply because they are missing the most important function of their brains. We are born with two hemispheres and to operate correctly we have to maintain a coherence between them.

Left brain is the pragmatic hemisphere that deals with logic and facts. If the person doesn't receive data from the right hemisphere, they are missing their connection to their own soul and spiritual awareness.

The right hemisphere deals with intuition, creativity, inspiration, spirituality and common sense .. non of which, any of you appear to possess.

I can't be certain what has caused such a malfunction, although our education system has been geared towards academia, and has inadvertently or perhaps by design, caused many people to have atrophied right brain activity.

The globalists have produced generations of nodding donkeys, spouting data with zero understanding of the foundations behind it. I haven't experienced an ounce of independent thought or imagination from them, and nothing that one could describe as personal opinion or originality, because it is simply beyond them. You echo other peoples opinions, which is tedious to say the least.

The irony and the sadness is, that non of you are even aware that you have been damaged. It is understandable, that half brained people would be attracted to those who are equally as incapacitated and these forums are a magnet for those poor souls.

My best advice for normal people is to avoid any contact with them, and allow them to have their own safe space.

It really isn't fair and bordering on abuse, to expose them to critical thinking .. Its not their fault! .. remember that!

I believe that the noisy, tiny minorities like atheists, SHOULD be included in society with kindness, acceptance and understanding .. inclusivity is imperative in this day and age.

Have compassion and patience with them and who knows, given time and isolation they may start to think for themselves again.

All the best!