Saudi Arabia warns Israel of 'very serious repercussions' if ground invasion of Rafah proceeds

originally posted by: Freeborn
The Gazan people did very little, if anything, to stop Ham
as.

Why would they? They LUV that Hamas ... and the terrorist attacks of Oct 7.

Shocking New Polling Out of Gaza and the West Bank Blows Up the Mainstream Narrative

They are in no position to make any demands of Israel.

Israel could turn the whole region to glass and their tin pot "kingdoms" to a by-word. They really shouldn't make a nuclear armed nation that has been the victim of endless genocide attempts nervous.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Never ceases to amaze me that people who decry fact checkers when others use the them use fact checkers.

Those links are all from last year , much has come to light since then.

It already has been. You just have your fingers in your ears so you can't hear it.

originally posted by: gortex
Those links are all from last year , much has come to light since then.

"Last year" was just six weeks ago. And no, it's the same facts ... Israel didn't fire on the music festival nor did it fire on the civilians elsewhere. There is zero evidence of it, and plenty of evidence against it. The evidence against it doesn't change with time.

a reply to: Freeborn

How do you come to that conclusion?

Based on the data, that is what my conclusion is based on, data that you can also find.
These are the data from the votes in which Hamas won in 2006:
132 total seats in Palestine
Hamas: 76 seats got 747,724 votes
Fatah: 43 seats got 423,054 votes
Total voters in the 2006 elections in Palestine: 1,341,671 voters
Total population of Palestine in 2006: 3,406,000
22% of the population of Palestine voted for Hamas.
With this data, which you can also find, do you consider 22% of a population to be the majority? Based on your data, can you affirm, as you do, that the majority of people support Hamas?

Now I ask you, how have you reached the following conclusions?

The Gazan people did very little, if anything, to stop Hamas.

Their lack of action implies silent acquiescence or tacit agreement with Hamas - complicitness in their terrorism.

What data are these conclusions based on? (and yes, I also saw videos of Palestinians celebrating, but I don't think there were more than 3 million Palestinians. If you have the count of that demonstration, pass it on to me, I will appreciate the information.
And no-one can deny that large numbers of Gazans celebrated and even revelled in the October 7th attacks.

And please show me where I've said 'anything goes' or that I'm comfortable with '2/3 of the dead' being 'civilians'.
Stop putting words into my mouth.

Your way of speaking insinuated that since a terrorist group killed people, a country has every right to kill an entire population and whatever happens, the force used to return the blow, if it destroys everything to the foundations , it's the Palestinians' fault. There is something called proportionality of force, in this case, after the terrorist act, they go Israel 0 - Palestine 25,000, everything in order.

It is incredible to see how you justify in every possible way to base your argument on "They are all terrorists", all Hamas, who pay just for sinners...
Fortunately, we don't all think the same.

originally posted by: HopeForTheFuture
Based on your data, can you affirm, as you do, that the majority of people support Hamas?

Guess you missed this -

Shocking New Polling Out of Gaza and the West Bank Blows Up the Mainstream Narrative


CNN Discusses that Poll
Reuters Discusses That Poll

and this
MSN New Poll Shows Palestinians Are the Impediment To Peace

A Nov. 14 survey by a West Bank polling firm asked Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank what kind of state they wanted to establish: one state for two peoples garnered the support of 5.4 per cent of respondents; a two-state solution was supported by 17.2 per cent; but the clear-winner, with 74.7 per cent in favour, was a “Palestinian state from the river to the sea.”

A reminder for those who haven’t been on a pro-Palestinian march recently: this phrase means a Palestinian state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean — with no Israel in between.

When protesters chant, “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,” it is not, as some suggest, an aspirational cry echoing the hopes of Palestinians for freedom from Israeli occupation, it is — according to this poll — the clear expression of the genocidal intent of most Palestinians (three out of four people), who want to obliterate Israel from the map.

originally posted by: HopeForTheFuture
Your way of speaking insinuated that since a terrorist group killed people, a country has every right to kill an entire population ....

A few thousand dead 'palestinians' out of 2.5 million isn't 'an entire population'.
And we don't know how many dead 'palestinians' there are. Hamas lies.
And Hamas considers a dead terrorist the same as a dead child. It doesn't differentiate.

You don't want dead 'palestinians'? Then tell Hamas and the 'Palestinians' to give up the hostages, lay down their arms, and stop calling for genocide of the Jews and the destruction of Israel.

Guess you missed this so here it is again.
Civilians die in war.

2,000,000 Civilians Dead in Vietnam War

650,000 Civilians Dead in Korean War

315,000 Civilians Dead in Iraq War

432,000 Civilians Dead in 'Hot Spots' Around the World

2,000,000 Civilians Dead in Iran and Iraq War

60,000,000 Civilians Died in World War II

20,000,000 Million Civilians Died in World War I

originally posted by: HopeForTheFuture
There is something called proportionality of force,

Yeah .. it's what LOSERS say when they want a war to continue on and on and on with no winner. The point of war is to WIN. And to do that you use overwhelming force against the enemy. You whining because one side is winning means that you don't understand the point of war. (or you are whining because it's the Jews winning and you don't like that) The point is to WIN and that means the other guy dies while your side doesn't.

in this case, after the terrorist act, they go Israel 0 - Palestine 25,000, everything in order.

1 - Why 'after the terrorist act'???? That was the start of the war. You can't just ignore it. That's disingenuous.

2 - Israel is not 0. They have lost 250 soldiers. And the fact that the number is so small is because they are WINNING.

3 - No, it's not 25,000 dead 'palestinians'. That number comes from Hamas. They lie. They inflate. They have no way of knowing how many dead there are. And they do not differentiate between a dead terrorist and a dead child. You don't like dead 'palestinians'??? Then tell them to give back the hostages, lay down their arms, and stop calling for the genocide of Jews and the destruction of Israel. This could be over today. Hell ... it could have been over before it started if Hamas and the Palestinians hadn't started it and attacked Israel.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Guess you missed this -

Shocking New Polling Out of Gaza and the West Bank Blows Up the Mainstream Narrative.

You don't even read the sources you share, it's ridiculous to deal with you. Enter the link (font) of the tweet that you yourself share and put the screenshots of the survey of the real source and show us all if the place you find where they put the figures of that tweet that you happily share.

Ridiculous, it's not worth wasting time with such extreme people.

LOSERS

I prefer to be a loser with those who cannot defend themselves, than to be a "winner" like you, next to those who abuse their power. You will "win" all the wars in the world, but you will lose humanity with your support for extermination, as they did before.

originally posted by: HopeForTheFuture
I prefer to be a loser with those who cannot defend themselves, than to be a "winner" like you, next to those who abuse their power.

Hamas and the 'palestinians' started a war they can't win.
Israel winning a war that was waged against them isn't 'abuse of power'.

You will "win" all the wars in the world, but you will lose humanity with your support for extermination, as they did before.

A few thousand people dead out of 2.5 million isn't 'extermination'.
They aren't all innocent civilians.
And every death is the fault of Hamas and the 'palestinians' who support them.
Keep up with the hyperbole ... its ridiculous and exposes your bias.

27/06/2023: Israel approves the construction of more than 5,000 illegal homes in occupied territories
es.euronews.... com/2023/06/27/israel-aprueba-la-construccion-de-mas-de-5-000-viviendas-ilegales-en-territorios-ocupados
Video. Israel approves the construction of more than 5,000 homes for settlers
es.euronews.com...

06/2023: Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories: Civilian deaths and widespread destruction from latest Gaza offensive highlight apartheid's human toll.
www.amnesty.org... human-toll-of-apartheid/

15/04/2023: 'Housing massacre': Israel steps up demolition of Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem
www.france24.com... 9n-este

10/05/2023: At least five dead in a new Israeli bombing of Gaza
www.google.com... nia.amp.html

Those killed in the conflict between Israel and Palestine since 1988
13,400 people have died since the First Intifada in 1988. 87% are Palestinians and, at least since 2008, the majority are civilians.
elordenmundial.com...

Israeli authorities detain and prosecute between 500 and 1,000 Palestinian children and adolescents each year. Many of these arrests follow the same pattern: raids in the middle of the night, transfers blindfolded and hands tied, without parents or relatives knowing the destination.
(And the terrorists are only Hamas?)
www.france24.com...

In jail without knowing why: the life of Amal and other Palestinian minors detained without charge or trial in Israel
www.google.com... tenidos-sin-cargos-ni-juicio-en-israel.html%3foutputType=amp

Israel before October 7, 2023. Attacks on civilians, illegal expulsion of people from their homes to occupy them, detention of children without charge...

a reply to: HopeForTheFuture

2006 electoral turn-out.

The Central Elections Commission said turnout was 74.6%–76.0% in the Gaza Strip and 73.1% in the West Bank

Hamas won 55% of seats.

I said that the Gazan people did very little to resist Hamas because the evidence suggests to me that the Gazan people did very little to resist Hamas.
Please show me otherwise.

Their lack of resistance suggests to me that they didn't want to resist and oppose what Hamas were doing.
What does it suggest to you?

Your way of speaking insinuated.....

I don't insinuate things, I say things very clearly.
You may lack comprehension skills, that's for you to work out.

.....that since a terrorist group killed people, a country has every right to kill an entire population and whatever happens

Err, no I didn't.
I said that as Hamas has reiterated over and over again that they have absolutely no intention whatsoever of stopping its campaign of terror against Israel and continuing with its attacks upon them until they rid the region of the Israeli state, all Jews and non-Muslims and sets up an Islamic fundamentalist state Israel has but one option, neutralise Hamas.
Otherwise they will pose a constant security threat to Israel and its citizens.

Now I would like to see that happen without any bloodshed at all but I don't see how that is possible.

Any suggestions or just more faux moral indignation?

a reply to: Freeborn

2006 electoral turn-out.

The Central Elections Commission said turnout was 74.6%–76.0% in the Gaza Strip and 73.1% in the West Bank

Hamas won 55% of seats.

Exactly. The data you provide is complementary to mine. Approximately 22% of Palestinians voted for Hamas. Which means that 78% did not support Hamas.

Their lack of resistance suggests to me that they didn't want to resist and oppose what Hamas were doing.

I don't know how you can know the lack of resistance of the Palestinian people against Hamas. According to you, what should they face armed combatants?
I think it is not a valid argument, following that argument... The Russians, Venezuelans, Cubans, North Koreans, Afghans... also offer little resistance to those dictators? No friend, I think it is unfair and inconsistent with reality to say that the Palestinians did not do or do enough against Hamas.

I said that as Hamas has reiterated over and over again that they have absolutely no intention whatsoever of stopping its campaign of terror against Israel and continuing with its attacks upon them until they rid the region of the Israeli state, all Jews and non-Muslims and sets up an Islamic fundamentalist state Israel has but one option, neutralise Hamas.
Otherwise they will pose a constant security threat to Israel and its citizens.

You omit too many events to fit your vision. And before Hamas that came to power in 2006, or before Fatah that came in the 70s, or before Israel illegally occupied that land?

In case you don't know, people lived in Palestine, before Israel expelled them from their lands, because it seems that there was no one there and the 6 million Palestinians, expelled from Palestine and who are currently refugees in Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, or Jordan, and the more than 2 million displaced south of Gaza seem invisible or that they did not occupy any physical place.

Focusing the entire argument on October 7, 2023 or on Hamas that has been in power since 2006, without taking into account a prolonged illegal occupation of more than 75 years by Israel, that is a real lack of understanding.

Any suggestions or just more faux moral indignation?

Yeah.
1º That there be an immediate ceasefire

2nd Hamas frees the hostages

3⁰ Israel respects the limits imposed in Treaty 181 and abandons its 75-year illegal occupation.

4º Both Palestine and Israel recognize each other as independent and sovereign states.

5th Dissolution of Hamas and preparation of votes in Palestine monitored by the international community.

6th Call for elections also in Israel.

7th Peace between peoples

originally posted by: HopeForTheFuture


3⁰ Israel respects the limits imposed in Treaty 181 and abandons its 75-year illegal occupation.

From the river to the sea?

a reply to: DBCowboy

From the river to the sea?

As always brilliant in your argument. You dismantle the most brainy and elaborate argument with your gift. "Touch".

originally posted by: HopeForTheFuture
a reply to: DBCowboy

From the river to the sea?

As always brilliant in your argument. You dismantle the most brainy and elaborate argument with your gift. "Touch".

"touché"

originally posted by: HopeForTheFuture
a reply to: DBCowboy

From the river to the sea?

As always brilliant in your argument. You dismantle the most brainy and elaborate argument with your gift. "Touch".

There's a famous phrase.

I don't have the verbiage or the author at the moment but its essentially:

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$ht.......

originally posted by: HopeForTheFuture
a reply to: DBCowboy

From the river to the sea?

As always brilliant in your argument. You dismantle the most brainy and elaborate argument with your gift. "Touch".

You want to abolish the sovereign state of Israel.

No.

Are you hamas?

a reply to: HopeForTheFuture

The data you provide is complementary to mine. Approximately 22% of Palestinians voted for Hamas

I take it Maths isn't your strongest point.

Turn out in Gaza was approximately 75%.
That means 75% of those eligible to vote did so.

Hamas won a clear majority of seats.

I have no idea where you get 22%?
Total population of The Palestinian Territories? Which would include The West Bank and all those ineligible to vote for whatever reason.

I don't know how you can know the lack of resistance of the Palestinian people against Hamas.

Because they did # all to try and overthrow them.

I have a reasonable grasp and understanding of the history of the region.
My opinion isn't based on ignorance - far from it - just a different interpretation and take on things.

1º That there be an immediate ceasefire

Why would Israel do that when Hamas has quite openly and repeatedly stated that no matter what they will not renounce violence and terrorism until they achieve their goals.
Hamas will simply regroup, rearm and resume their attacks on Israel - Back to square one.

2nd Hamas frees the hostages

Which they can do but they haven't and it doesn't appear as if they are going to anytime soon.
And ideas how they can be made to do so?

3⁰ Israel respects the limits imposed in Treaty 181 and abandons its 75-year illegal occupation.

Illegal according to who?
Two state solution?
Why not?
Oh that's right, Hamas has refused to consider it as that means accepting the Israeli state and Hamas point blank refuse to consider that as an option. They are very open that the only solution they will consider is the abolition of the Israeli state, ridding the whole region of all Jews and non-Muslims - by whatever means necessary - and the establishment of a fundamental Islamic nation/caliphate.
They are very unequivocal on the matter.

Personally I think its probably the only long term solution but it isn't going to happen as long as Hamas are a live threat.

4º Both Palestine and Israel recognize each other as independent and sovereign states.

I refer the honourable Gnetleman to the answer I gave earlier.

5th Dissolution of Hamas and preparation of votes in Palestine monitored by the international community.

All for that.
Now how are you going 'dissolve' Hamas - without it being replaced by something exactly the same just with a different name?

6th Call for elections also in Israel.

Israel is a democratic country and elections are held regularly in accordance with their laws.

7th Peace between peoples

Of course.....if only it were so simple.

originally posted by: HopeForTheFuture
1º That there be an immediate ceasefire
2nd Hamas frees the hostages

You got it backwards. Hostages get freed first. THEN there can be a ceasefire.

3⁰ Israel respects the limits imposed in Treaty 181 and abandons its 75-year illegal occupation.

Gaza hasn't been occupied since 2006. It will be now though. And that's the fault of the 'Palestinians'. If they would learn how to behave themselves better, they wouldn't be.

4º Both Palestine and Israel recognize each other as independent and sovereign states.

history of a two state solution
In the past, Israel has offered that. The 'palestinians' have turned it down. They want EVERYTHING and wont compromise. You'll have to tell your 'palestinian' buddies that they need to learn how to work with people who aren't Muslim.

5th Dissolution of Hamas and preparation of votes in Palestine monitored by the international community.

And replaced by what? The 'palestinians' put people in charge who mirrored their thoughts and desires. What makes you think they won't do the exact same thing again .. put a terrorist group in charge.

6th Call for elections also in Israel.

Israel already has free elections.

7th Peace between peoples

The End OF The Jews - Childrens Book Taught to Gazan Children
Childrens book found in Gaza.
Teaching Gazan children to slaughter the Jews.
A few screen shots of childrens TV shows is shown too.
It's all about the slaughter of Jews.
Yeah .. like peace can be had with this mentality. Pffft.

originally posted by: HopeForTheFuture
In case you don't know, people lived in Palestine, before Israel expelled them from their lands, because it seems that there was no one there and the 6 million Palestinians, expelled from Palestine and who are currently refugees in Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, or Jordan, and the more than 2 million displaced south of Gaza seem invisible or that they did not occupy any physical place.

Incorrect.

United Nations Story

700,000 so called 'palestinians' were displaced in 1948.
Actually, there weren't 'palestinians'. They were Egyptians and Jordanians.
There was no 'palestine'.
6 million are claiming refugee status because they had ancestors who were displaced.
That's not how it's supposed to work.
They aren't supposed to be allowed to claim 'refugee' status because of ancestors.
Yet ... they are.

originally posted by: HopeForTheFuture
Approximately 22% of Palestinians voted for Hamas. Which means that 78% did not support Hamas.

Incorrect. Your either your math sucks or you are disingenuous and are counting all of the ineligible voters like the children and West Bank etc in your calculations. It doesn't matter when talking about what is happening now decades later. NOW the overwhelming majority support Hamas and also support the genocide of the Jews and the destruction of Israel.