How can atheism have morality?

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Venkuish1
Clearly you don't understand what viral evolution means. Do you think the a human virus like influenza will evolve to become another human virus?

lol no, but you do. That is literally the theory of evolution, that organisms evolved from other organisms. Are you admitting this doesn't happen?

Regardless, viruses are in a separate category, and are often not considered living because they do not have independent means of reproduction.

I am referring you back to my link above that you seem to want to ignore (it's from science direct)

Viruses have mutation rates that are higher than any other member of the kingdom of life. This gives them the ability to evolve, even within the course of a single infection, and to evade multiple host defenses, thereby impacting pathogenesis.

Tell me what part of the text you don't get.

Mutations? Viral evolution? Pathogenesis? What does the author say?

Let me help you.

Viruses mutate and evolve and because of the high mutation rates they can often evade the host defences. Viral evolution is discussed for once more.

Evolution is a settled science.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

There was evolutionary pack mentality, but I think we have evolved well past that to establish morals. Early hunters would have a kinship within their small pack, but if you walked up they would most likely kill you on the spot. Even Indians in the Americas were pretty blood thirsty in many ways within their communities and towards others.


I highly disagree, we almost died out too and the only reason we made it and the others didn’t is because we followed the food south and the others didn’t. The food source migrated to warmer climates looking for food too. Nothing magical about that.


I see a lot of bias in what you wrote. Religions have layers to them and you with others tend to only focus on top layers that are more politically driven than religion. If atheists think they are so much better where were the great atheists civilizations of good? On the lower levels religious people are more altruistic in using their own time to help others. Go into a food kitchen and count the atheists. lol

That's not conductive to survival, assuming to outnumber or be stronger than every other human tribe encountered. It's more likely that even early hunter-gatherer tribes preferred diplomacy. Evidence shows that hunter-gatherer tribes interbred with each other and were generally peaceful with each other until there came up conflicts over not having enough land and/or resources to support both populations. Many tribes (and animals in general) share hunting and gathering grounds on a rotational basis so that they can all acquire what they need and not take from each other.

"the only reason we made it and the others didn’t is because we followed the food south and the others didn’t"

What is your source for that? My understanding is that we ran all the other hominids out of the prime ecosystems with our superior pack abilities. Remember, every other hominid fossil we've seen has robust bones more similar to a chimpanzee, they were far physically superior to us- 1v1 there was no chance- sapiens had to use large pack numbers and cohesive strategies to our advantage.

"Go into a food kitchen and count the atheists."

Atheists aren't allowed to volunteer in soup kitchens because christians are ass-hats. These same organizations that contribute to your statistics represent the cost of doing business. These churches take far more income out of the communities they supposedly help and evade taxes; it's a business model. In the US, religious people donate on average 5% of their disposable income while atheists donate slightly less at 4%. Religious people donate to their church and trust them to do right with the donations while atheists typically donate directly to relief organizations. Religious people also think they are compelled to donate periodically by their church and community. Atheists almost exclusively donate out of empathy and rarely because of social pressure.

And to your last point, there has never been "great theistic civilizations of good" either. Every civilization we know of has been a combination of atheistic, polytheistic and monotheistic civilians. If government officials choose to align themselves with theism, it does not magically convert the entire society into theism. Theistic or atheistic civilizations do not exist; the majority of either is still a mix of ideologies.

a reply to: daskakik

I am quoting cooperton because he posed a question he thinks nobody can answer

Also, If you think it is a fact that viruses evolve, then show me an influenza virus becoming a polio virus, or any other virus besides influenza for that matter, over subsequent mutations

Maybe you want to answer why the influenza virus hasn't yet become a poliovirus or HIV.

a reply to: Xtrozero

There is also possibly some evidence (www.nature.com...) showing that long distance trade routes existed as far back as 200,000+ years ago. If true, it shows that unrelated groups were clearly not hostile to each other by default. There are always examples of more primitive, violent tribes throughout human history but it was the exception, not the rule.

originally posted by: Venkuish1
Maybe you want to answer why the influenza virus hasn't yet become a poliovirus or HIV.

There is no point, their argument is that until one virus becomes another type of virus it isn't evolution, it is just adaptation.

The why is neither here nor there.

originally posted by: NovemberHemisphere


There is also possibly some evidence (www.nature.com...) showing that long distance trade routes existed as far back as 200,000+ years ago. If true, it shows that unrelated groups were clearly not hostile to each other by default. There are always examples of more primitive, violent tribes throughout human history but it was the exception, not the rule.

You would be hard pressed to convince me 10,000 years ago much less 200,000. We have always been nomadic by nature as I suggested as to why the ice age didn’t get us too. That would explain travel without trade routes before farming and livestock. I see human violence more the rule than exception.

Your point that religion could be suffocating and ruthless could be true, but why would it be like that in the first place. And more importantly a common theme throughout human history?

If we invented religion and accepted it among the vast majority then it should be all good if humans were naturally good to begin with, and if religion is bad then so is the rest by default.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Venkuish1
Maybe you want to answer why the influenza virus hasn't yet become a poliovirus or HIV.

There is no point, their argument is that until one virus becomes another type of virus it isn't evolution, it is just adaptation.

The why is neither here nor there.

They forgot about adaptation being an evolutionary process but their argument is hilarious.

Influenza virus can't become poliovirus so evolution isn't true. I wonder if there are schools were these ideas taught by religious teachers arguing along these lines without getting themselves fired.

a reply to: Venkuish1
That is why these discussions never really get anywhere.

Creationists: I won't accept evolution is real unless you can show me speciation.

Atheists: I won't accept your god is real unless I meet him.

[Insert girly slappy fight here]

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: Venkuish1
That is why these discussions never really get anywhere.

Creationists: I won't accept evolution is real unless you can show me speciation.

Atheists: I won't accept your god is real unless I meet him.

[Insert girly slappy fight here]

The difference is the amount of evidence for evolution though.

The existence of God still remains a question posed at a philosophical level and without any evidence to support it especially the Abrahamic God who is not real.

originally posted by: Venkuish1

They forgot about adaptation being an evolutionary process but their argument is hilarious.

Influenza virus can't become poliovirus so no evolution isn't true. I wonder if there are schools were these ideas where religious teachers are arguing along these lines without getting themselves fired.

If there is no evolution then when was the last time a species magically appeared? When did some new animal appear out of nowhere, one second there is nothing out in a wide field and then the next second we see 1000 new animals appear running long.

The other question I ask is why can't evolution be God's tool to create species? It seems kind of strange people don't just say that God uses evolution to create his species. I think it has more to do with also thinking that the earth is only 6000 years old and everything we see God made as it is today. Their logic then makes sense that everything was created only 6000 years ago, but you don't hear that part from them, I wonder why?

Just say it then Cooperton that there is no need for evolution because God created everything just 6000 years ago. At least then we would know where he was coming from.

a reply to: Venkuish1
They set the goal post at speciation because this allows them to label everything else adaptation and just disregard it.

And at the same time claiming to have mountains of evidence against the "official narrative".

It is a waste of time, but some of us enjoy wasting our time like that.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

Just say it then Cooperton that there is no need for evolution because God created everything just 6000 years ago. At least then we would know where he was coming from.

I don't believe the earth is 6000 years old. The earth existed before the creation of life, according to Genesis.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Xtrozero

Just say it then Cooperton that there is no need for evolution because God created everything just 6000 years ago. At least then we would know where he was coming from.

I don't believe the earth is 6000 years old. The earth existed before the creation of life, according to Genesis.

The earth has existed forever?

originally posted by: Venkuish1
The earth has existed forever?

Probably not, but i don't know

originally posted by: cooperton

Probably not, but i don't know

So it then doesn't make sense that we would then have billions of species come and go then...How did they come? I'm not sure if it was you, but some here say humans walked with dinosaurs... If there is a logical path somewhere in all this it would help.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
Your point that religion could be suffocating and ruthless could be true, but why would it be like that in the first place. And more importantly a common theme throughout human history?

If we invented religion and accepted it among the vast majority then it should be all good if humans were naturally good to begin with, and if religion is bad then so is the rest by default.

It's basic psychoanalysis that all societies discover eventually, that they can use the things that people inherently trust or desire to sway public opinion and shape culture how they wish. A good example of this is when ruthless business models are introduced to things like healthcare or education- things that people innately see as beneficial and trustworthy. Inventing unseen forces to scare people just happens to be one of the most common ways people discover to manipulate the desires of their fellow human. It's all about convincing people that they want something they do not need, I see the psychology behind theism as the mother of modern advertisement/psychoanalytical techniques. It happens in every society to some degree or another; human nature is a thing that people realize can be exploited.

The other question I ask is why can't evolution be God's tool to create species? It seems kind of strange people don't just say that God uses evolution to create his species. I think it has more to do with also thinking that the earth is only 6000 years old and everything we see God made as it is today. Their logic then makes sense that everything was created only 6000 years ago, but you don't hear that part from them, I wonder why?

If evolution is the tool 'god' uses to create species, then it makes no difference because that 'god' would no longer be involved with our lives because interfering in any way would disrupt the natural course of evolution. So you're still left in a world with no 'god'. The concept there would be that a planet was chosen to just leave sophisticated bacteria on to evolve on it's own, like a science experiment/time capsule of sorts. Theism really gives us zero answers, it just adds more sophisticated and complex ideas to the fundamentals of life and the universe. It's hard enough conceptualizing what the rudimentary existence of a universe or galaxy is like with the most basic, fundamental elements intact. When you say it is a supreme intelligence that is fundamentally existing in the most rudimentary, youngest version of the universe you just needlessly put yourself back to square one with pure fiction. Theism only adds misunderstanding and confusion to a person's world view through fantasy and fiction.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
So it then doesn't make sense that we would then have billions of species come and go then...How did they come? I'm not sure if it was you, but some here say humans walked with dinosaurs... If there is a logical path somewhere in all this it would help.

There is evidence that humans walked with dinosaurs, I compiled the info here: humans and dinosaurs co-existed

In terms of "how" did creation take place, my best bet would be it had something to do with the tachyon universe: Tachyon universe, UFOs, Angels

originally posted by: cooperton

There is evidence that humans walked with dinosaurs, I compiled the info here: humans and dinosaurs co-existed

In terms of "how" did creation take place, my best bet would be it had something to do with the tachyon universe: Tachyon universe, UFOs, Angels

I just let out a very deep sigh when I read this. I'm going to read your links, regardless of how ridiculous it sounds. I'm partially convinced Cooperton and OP are just rage-baiting trolls at this point, lol. Honestly GTFOutta here with that barney rubble BS, are you gonna show us ancient dinosaur saddles next?

a reply to: NovemberHemisphere

What? You don't believe him?

Hi yo Silver!

originally posted by: NovemberHemisphere

originally posted by: cooperton

There is evidence that humans walked with dinosaurs, I compiled the info here: humans and dinosaurs co-existed

In terms of "how" did creation take place, my best bet would be it had something to do with the tachyon universe: Tachyon universe, UFOs, Angels

I just let out a very deep sigh when I read this. I'm going to read your links, regardless of how ridiculous it sounds. I'm partially convinced Cooperton and OP are just rage-baiting trolls at this point, lol. Honestly GTFOutta here with that barney rubble BS, are you gonna show us ancient dinosaur saddles next?

OP left quite awhile ago, thoroughly hoisted on his own petard. At least Coop is far more interested in debate, by comparison. I assume he believes the stuff he's saying.

I mean, people believed in Qanon... hard core. I personally know a Believer. He finally let it go after the Q prophecies kept failing to materialize.

"These people are SICK"

Lol