How can atheism have morality?

originally posted by: cooperton

Plato's version of reincarnation involves an inevitable graduation once the soul is fully mature. But yeah I feel the same way, reincarnation would strip your memory and identity from you. I get the whole ego-death thing, but I still want to be consciously aware of my origin when entering into the next stages of conscious reality in the tachyonic realms.

IDK I feel the same in both directions in there are no lessons learned.

One is that you are given freedom of choice, but if you do not choose well then you go to hell eternally. What is learned there other than "I told you so"?

The other one is an endless life reset with nothing brought forward from your past life. No lessons learned, just try again from the start, so what is it we trying to do here? Also, it seems souls are constantly appearing with fresh souls as the population increases. We are talking billions of new souls from 1000 years ago, so where do they come from and is there an end? What happens when the population drops by billions... This constant change in population growth pretty much shows this one is bogus.

originally posted by: Venkuish1
Evolution is a well established scientific theory.

Ahh I see you've down-graded it from fact to theory, was this on purpose?

It's not on the table for debate.

Oozing dogmatic fervor.

Perhaps you may want to revisit your grade9 biology and learn about what you've missed unless you want to still argue we couldn't descended from monkeys because if we did then why do monkeys didn't evolve into humans.

First off, I never made that point, you are finding strawmen arguments to avoid the real argument at hand. Show me one example of a population of organisms evolving into something new, or admit you and the rest of the believers are merely relying on faith that it can happen. Science relies on empirical evidence, and you can't seem to list a single example of evolution actually happening. Don't fret though, no one can, because such evidence does not exist.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

One is that you are given freedom of choice, but if you do not choose well then you go to hell eternally. What is learned there other than "I told you so"?

God knows his kids, nothing can take them out of his hand, not even their own mis-doings. We are saved by grace, actions are our thanksgiving for this grace.

Satan also apparently has kids. There are some who were born preferring eternal debauchery more than heavenly bliss. I've heard many people say they'd rather live in hell with the sinners. Who am I to tell them not to enjoy the club for all eternity? So engulfed in the flames of their desires, they would refuse to let it go.

The fact that you're getting tired of this world makes me think you're in the former rather than the latter.

originally posted by: Venkuish1
Burgen of proof is on you I am afraid. Creationists have the burden of proof if they want to provide an alternative theory for which you have no evidence other than blind faith.

No the burden of proof is on whoever is claiming a fact. You are claiming evolution is fact, so show the evidence that it is fact.

You attacking my beliefs has nothing to do with the alleged validity of your "fact"

originally posted by: cooperton

The fact that you're getting tired of this world makes me think you're in the former rather than the latter.

We struggle our whole lives to take care of our family, try to do well, etc..lots of work..never-ending stuff just to end up old and broken along the way. AND, that is a better life than 7 billion of others that have it much worse. Life is life, but as I said it does get tiring at times.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Venkuish1
Evolution is a well established scientific theory.

Ahh I see you've down-graded it from fact to theory, was this on purpose?

It's not on the table for debate.

Oozing dogmatic fervor.

Perhaps you may want to revisit your grade9 biology and learn about what you've missed unless you want to still argue we couldn't descended from monkeys because if we did then why do monkeys didn't evolve into humans.

First off, I never made that point, you are finding strawmen arguments to avoid the real argument at hand. Show me one example of a population of organisms evolving into something new, or admit you and the rest of the believers are merely relying on faith that it can happen. Science relies on empirical evidence, and you can't seem to list a single example of evolution actually happening. Don't fret though, no one can, because such evidence does not exist.

You need to understand the basics and the difference between a scientific hypothesis and scientific theory. Are you confused in these basic concepts?

No real argument exists other than the assertions by creationists the universe has been created by intelligent design. Any evidence? So far there is nothing.

Science relies on empirical evidence, observations, experiments, mathematical models and mathematics and not personal convictions snf feelings like the ones you have provided in thr absence of any evidence.

You made the claim and you argued in favour of intelligent design and the burden of proof is on you. It's not on me to disprove your assertions.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Venkuish1
Burgen of proof is on you I am afraid. Creationists have the burden of proof if they want to provide an alternative theory for which you have no evidence other than blind faith.

No the burden of proof is on whoever is claiming a fact. You are claiming evolution is fact, so show the evidence that it is fact.

You attacking my beliefs has nothing to do with the alleged validity of your "fact"

I am not claiming it's a fact. I am stating the fact. Two different things completely.

It's true you have beliefs and no evidence for your creationism.

a reply to: cooperton

Start with the basics before making the connections you want to make between your deity and morality.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...#:~:text=At%20the%20same%20time%2C%20evolutionary,most%20important%20theory%20in%20biology.

Evolution is both a fact and a theory. Evolution is widely observable in laboratory and natural populations as they change over time. The fact that we need annual flu vaccines is one example of observable evolution. At the same time, evolutionary theory explains more than observations, as the succession on the fossil record. Hence, evolution is also the scientific theory that embodies biology, including all organisms and their characteristics.

Can you find some evidence (even little) for creationism?

What about your objective morality?

originally posted by: Venkuish1

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...#:~:text=At%20the%20same%20time%2C%20evolutionary,most%20important%20theory%20in%20biology.

"Evolution is both a fact and a theory. Evolution is widely observable in laboratory and natural populations as they change over time. The fact that we need annual flu vaccines is one example of observable evolution. At the same time, evolutionary theory explains more than observations, as the succession on the fossil record. Hence, evolution is also the scientific theory that embodies biology, including all organisms and their characteristics."

Crazy with such a dogmatic opening phrase that they do not provide one example of a population of organisms evolving into something new. Go on, keep googling, maybe you will find something.

originally posted by: Venkuish1

I am not claiming it's a fact. I am stating the fact. Two different things completely.

Then what is the evidence for the fact you are stating? If I say that it is a fact that pressure inside a container increases with temperature, I have evidence to show that is true. So what is the evidence that evolution is a fact? Where is it demonstrated that a population of organisms can evolve into something new?

originally posted by: Xtrozero
We struggle our whole lives to take care of our family, try to do well, etc..lots of work..never-ending stuff just to end up old and broken along the way. AND, that is a better life than 7 billion of others that have it much worse. Life is life, but as I said it does get tiring at times.

I like to joke about how at times I feel like I've become my house's servant, going around and keeping it in order and fixing things here and there. We know this realm is only temporary. It is quite the ideal system to originate a beginning of our consciousness, while also humbling ourselves in preparation for whatever is to come.

a reply to: Venkuish1
You seem to be new here. You are wasting your time, which is cool, if that is why you are doing this.

Check out this thread
www.abovetopsecret.com...

85 pages of what you see in this one.

The only cool thing is that we get to see some really good counterpoints. Things we probably never thought about, making the flood story even more impossible.

So while some people think they have scientific proof of god, we see the emperor has no clothes.

originally posted by: daskakik

So while some people think they have scientific proof of god, we see the emperor has no clothes.

Still no empirical example of a population of organisms evolving into something else.

Notice how you all resort to attacking my faith because you can't defend your own faith?

originally posted by: cooperton
Still no empirical example of a population of organisms evolving into something else.

I don't care one way or the other.

My "faith" leans towards this place being a simulation, so a creator by default, doesn't mean I have to accept it is the one you believe in.

Notice how you all resort to attacking my faith because you can't defend your own faith?

Because that is what you always turn these types of threads into.

Even you calling science "faith" has grown stale and meaningless to me.

originally posted by: daskakik
I don't care one way or the other.

Yet you continually comment in response to me, or about me.

Even you calling science "faith" has grown stale and meaningless to me.

I'm not calling science "faith". Empirical science is pure and impactful. Evolution, on the other hand, is a theory without empirical evidence to show it can actually happen. Therefore, it is a matter of faith.

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: Venkuish1
You seem to be new here. You are wasting your time, which is cool, if that is why you are doing this.

Check out this thread
www.abovetopsecret.com...

85 pages of what you see in this one.

The only cool thing is that we get to see some really good counterpoints. Things we probably never thought about, making the flood story even more impossible.

So while some people think they have scientific proof of god, we see the emperor has no clothes.

You can have a look at the exchanges we had with the other poster and see that a creationist demands proof for well established facts when at the same time doesn't a shred of evidence for the intelligent design hypothesis. In the meantime they are trying to go around it by 'debating' scientific principles or even equations and concepts that they don't understand. They believe that by showing there are 'holes' or 'gaps' in the current understanding somehow magically makes their argument true. It's mostly arguments from ignorance and total fallacies.

Then the magical jump is when morality becomes closely linked to the divine deity for which they have not a single piece of evidence for its existence let alone the intelligent design scenario.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: daskakik
I don't care one way or the other.

Yet you continually comment in response to me, or about me.

Even you calling science "faith" has grown stale and meaningless to me.

I'm not calling science "faith". Empirical science is pure and impactful. Evolution, on the other hand, is a theory without empirical evidence to show it can actually happen. Therefore, it is a matter of faith.

You don't even understand the concepts and you attempt to 'correct' the 'errors' in biology or even in cosmology according to your flawed arguments and your continuous misinterpretations before you start making the arguments from ignorance.

originally posted by: cooperton
Yet you continually comment in response to me, or about me.

I don't care one way or the other if someone can provide an empirical example for evolution that is to your standard.

I do enjoy wasting my time in these threads.

I'm not calling science "faith". Empirical science is pure and impactful. Evolution, on the other hand, is a theory without empirical evidence to show it can actually happen. Therefore, it is a matter of faith.

But they have empirical evidence of evolution, you just set your goal post at speciation because you know they are not there yet.

So people giving evolution the benefit of the doubt, based on what is known, isn't "faith" regardless of how bad you seem to need that to be the case.

a reply to: Venkuish1
I know, and I have engaged with people like this for over a decade and it is always the same.

That is why someone posted this on page 1 of this thread.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Venkuish1

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...#:~:text=At%20the%20same%20time%2C%20evolutionary,most%20important%20theory%20in%20biology.

"Evolution is both a fact and a theory. Evolution is widely observable in laboratory and natural populations as they change over time. The fact that we need annual flu vaccines is one example of observable evolution. At the same time, evolutionary theory explains more than observations, as the succession on the fossil record. Hence, evolution is also the scientific theory that embodies biology, including all organisms and their characteristics."

Crazy with such a dogmatic opening phrase that they do not provide one example of a population of organisms evolving into something new. Go on, keep googling, maybe you will find something.

originally posted by: Venkuish1

I am not claiming it's a fact. I am stating the fact. Two different things completely.

Then what is the evidence for the fact you are stating? If I say that it is a fact that pressure inside a container increases with temperature, I have evidence to show that is true. So what is the evidence that evolution is a fact? Where is it demonstrated that a population of organisms can evolve into something new?

I have linked you scientific research paper about evolution. Unless you believe there is a conspiracy and the scientists who have written it, among the thousands of similar papers, are somehow conspiring against your deity.

In the opening paragraph you will see

The fact that we need annual flu vaccines is one example of observable evolution

Are the scientists deluded or conspiring against your God or is it the creationists who are deluded?

originally posted by: Venkuish1
In the opening paragraph you will see

The fact that we need annual flu vaccines is one example of observable evolution

Won't accept that, they will say it is adaptation and not evolution.