Palestinian does not equal HAMAS

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: BiothermalReactor

You're stating this as a fact?

Because you will have a hard time convincing any medical association that RELIGION is critical to being a human being.

If you are stating this a fact, you would be denying most of, if not, all of the medical record.

Wow did I push a button, or what?

It's a fact... To remove religion would be to remove humans' ability to think in the abstract.

I'm going to just say this and then go learn how to play some Bowie:

This notion is beyond absurd, but can certainly be used to justify the killing of innocent civilians of anyone in any part of the world.

Are you just playing the devil's advocate as well?

Edit2Add:™

Is this thread going to reach page 28 unscratched like my other Dissecting Disinformation thread?

originally posted by: JinMI


What you describe is a lack of morals and values. A system of beliefs, and they need not be religious per say, that ground someone or bring them back from stretching too far.

You don't come back from it if you have nothing to derive from, thus why I find the conversation and topic so fascinating.

What if I'm making up the morals and values along the way like what we would see in a communist society? What brings one back if there isn't something to come back to? I'm not saying religion is foolproof as I said people have a tendency to erode it to their own desires and just call it religion, but the basic fundamentals are still there to rubberband back to.

How many nonreligious people have actually read Kant much less at some scholarly level like a lot of very average people have done with the bible? Nonreligious people in America still have their morals influenced by religion. Why is killing wrong? Why do people see it as not wrong? What drives those values? Where do the gang bangers in Chicago that shoot each other up each night get their values from? Why are young adults robbing stores, where are the morals coming from?

a reply to: BiothermalReactor

Were it absurd, it wouldn't have gone from "sky gods" to present day Gods.


Religion is ingrained in the entire human existence.

What's absurd is to think that it's not.

a reply to: Xtrozero

What if I'm making up the morals and values along the way like what we would see in a communist society? What brings one back if there isn't something to come back to? I'm not saying religion is foolproof as I said people have a tendency to erode it to their own desires and just call it religion, but the basic fundamentals are still there to rubberband back to.

Take something like theft as an example. Is it right to steal a loaf of bread to feed your family? The answers will vary based upon individual value system. Now say you live in a community that rejects and has laws against any theft. How far do you expect the law to bend, I mean, your family was hungry.

How many nonreligious people have actually read Kant much less at some scholarly level like a lot of very average people have done with the bible? Nonreligious people in America still have their morals influenced by religion. Why is killing wrong? Why do people see it as not wrong? What drives those values? Where do the gang bangers in Chicago that shoot each other up each night get their values from? Why are young adults robbing stores, where are the morals...

Murder, the taking of anothers life, not that ups the ante. For example we have multiple levels of murder followed by multiple levels of manslaughter. As well as civil liability.

If you don't subscribe to any form of value of life nor the society in which you live, what will mold you into being part of that society? What to do about the offender?

With or without religion, it can get quite messy and is a net negative to both sides of the equation.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Do you think Israeli children are taught to love their Palestinian neighbors? Bear in mind that every able bodied Israeli is required to serve in the IDF where they are conditioned to believe that every brown person is out to kill them.

originally posted by: BiothermalReactor

I'm going to just say this and then go learn how to play some Bowie:

I'm just saying that religion is as much a part of being human as it is for you to create your breakfast in your head tomorrow before you create it for real, or for Bowie to do this....

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: BiothermalReactor

Were it absurd, it wouldn't have gone from "sky gods" to present day Gods.


Religion is ingrained in the entire human existence.

What's absurd is to think that it's not.

I am so happy you got that off your chest.

Is that where you draw the line of humanity...religion?

That sounds awful anti-innocent-person-y to me.

Well, gosh darn it all I got baited from Bowie. I should have known there'd be some grandmaster baiters around these parts.

a reply to: BiothermalReactor

I am so happy you got that off your chest.

Is that where you draw the line of humanity...religion?

No, there is no line as they are inseparable.

That sounds awful anti-innocent-person-y to me.

In your mind perhaps.....

originally posted by: JinMI

Take something like theft as an example. Is it right to steal a loaf of bread to feed your family? The answers will vary based upon individual value system. Now say you live in a community that rejects and has laws against any theft. How far do you expect the law to bend, I mean, your family was hungry.

Maybe it's a non-religious system, just a cold dark machine-type logic. You will not steal period. What if you steal the bread but another starves in your place? One would think in a religious-based society they would just give you a loaf of bread... Do you think nonreligious people have good-hearted feelings for their fellow man or are they more self-serve? The reason I say this is feelings for their fellow man is a learned trait that is taught in many religions.

With or without religion, it can get quite messy and is a net negative to both sides of the equation.

Look at Pol Pot within a year or so he had millions killed, go check out the killing fields sometimes. He had schools turned into torture camps where the kids of the schools did the torturing. We are talking about some really nasty levels of torturing and done just to kill them for no other reason. They would start the torture and walk away and not come back until they were dead, using young kids mind you to do the work.

This is what I mean when I say crap can go really wrong real quick. Think what America would turn into if we lost all electrical grids...geez

a reply to: Xtrozero

Maybe it's a non-religious system, just a cold dark machine-type logic. You will not steal period. What if you steal the bread but another starves in your place? One would think in a religious-based society they would just give you a loaf of bread... Do you think nonreligious people have good-hearted feelings for their fellow man or are they more self-serve? The reason I say this is feelings for their fellow man is a learned trait that is taught in many religions.

Would it not be reliant on not only the tenets of the religion being discussed but ALSO the time and place of the society? Which speaks to your point and mine as well.

This is what I mean when I say crap can go really wrong real quick. Think what America would turn into if we lost all electrical grids...geez

What is supposed to make us unique in this regard is our Constitution. And I'll not pretend that all of the erosions aren't working toward the ends you describe in some fashion.

a reply to: JinMI

That's extremely prejudicial and wrong.

But it is your right, as a human being of Planet Earth, no matter how bilious I find it, to hold that opinion by free choice.

originally posted by: JinMI

Would it not be reliant on not only the tenets of the religion being discussed but ALSO the time and place of the society? Which speaks to your point and mine as well.

Very true. People do point out all the bad parts of the Bible as we see it today but just think how groundbreaking it was back in the day, and that just tells you how evil we humans really are. We are the Velociraptors of the mammal world. You know that evil alien race that goes to another planet to rape and pillage all the resources and then eat anything that moves...is us...

We are not the apex predator because we are sweet...We need something I think to guide us at least a little.

originally posted by: BiothermalReactor
a reply to: JinMI

That's extremely prejudicial and wrong.

But it is your right, as a human being of Planet Earth, no matter how bilious I find it, to hold that opinion by free choice.

Coming from you, and your proclaimed positions and arguments, I must say that what your opinion of me is a badge of honor.

If you wish to deny the entire history of humanity in order to form your worldview, be my guess. Thats your right as a human being of planet Earth, no matter how foolish I find it.

a reply to: Xtrozero

We do need something to guide us, absolutely.

In modern times, we have the luxury of subsisting on the backs of giants and making a claim such as "i don't need religion to derive my value system."

All while living in the US of all places.

Yet the fact remains, sans any values at all, you are not beholden to anything, thus any atrocity is perfectly permissible. Which is your spot on point.

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: Xtrozero

We do need something to guide us, absolutely.

Yet the fact remains, sans any values at all, you are not beholden to anything, thus any atrocity is perfectly permissible. Which is your spot on point.

Civilization gives us a false sense of reality. Remember how serious it was starting when toilet paper ran out...lol It doesn't take much to crack this thin bubble that humans are nice and sweet.

One last point on this... We both agree we need guidance and one could say why not Kant, which is amazing work BTW, and I wholeheartedly agree except for one point.

How many people in the world have read even a line or two of Kant, so what would be that guidance where people will read it, study it, and live it daily like their life depends on it? You get that with the bible, but not Kant...

What is the saying..if there was something better we would already have it in place...Kant isn't better as a learning and guiding tool as religion is where your existence depends on whether you get it right or not.

originally posted by: Threadbarer
Do you think Israeli children are taught to love their Palestinian neighbors? Bear in mind that every able bodied Israeli is required to serve in the IDF where they are conditioned to believe that every brown person is out to kill them.

What I know is that Muslims and Jews live in harmony in Israel. I also know that Israel is a part of ME and the ME is one brutal place on many levels. This also means Israel can be brutal too, but the big difference is the levels of brutality and extremism Israel has pales in comparison to just about every Muslim country there is.

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: Xtrozero

We do need something to guide us, absolutely.

In modern times, we have the luxury of subsisting on the backs of giants and making a claim such as "i don't need religion to derive my value system."

All while living in the US of all places.

Yet the fact remains, sans any values at all, you are not beholden to anything, thus any atrocity is perfectly permissible. Which is your spot on point.

A tiny bone to pick with you on that statement.

If you need the promise of of some type of Heaven to do good deeds in life and the promise of eternal damnation to keep you from doing bad deeds, then in my book you are not a person with a moral compass.

At all.

Morality does not stem from a religion.

Morality stems from knowing good from bad... Truths from untruths.

Something sadly lacking in society for the last few thousand years or so.

a reply to: Lumenari

A tiny bone to pick with you on that statement.

By all means. This topic is fascinating to me for some reason.

If you need the promise of of some type of Heaven to do good deeds in life and the promise of eternal damnation to keep you from doing bad deeds, then in my book you are not a person with a moral compass.

I don't think it need be a heaven or eternal damnation. It may take all sorts of incentives or peril to motivate. Even your parents disfavor for example as in far East religions. I mean taking to to an argumentative position, one could say that's exactly how it's happening within the wokesphere with the virtue signaling. We know NIMBYists are prevalent yet yearn for that social acceptance from their social class.

Morality does not stem from a religion.

I would argue that morality largely is subjective. Sure, there are easy topics to define as immoral. Murder, theft, rape etc. Yet what of the Vikings of ages past? Moors? Huns?

I'd say morality is entirely subjective.

Terrorists feel they are morally right in their slaughters.

Southern white folks thought it was morally right to have slaves.

Many thought it was morally right to slaughter entire tribes.

Demean the Irish.

Abase the Jews.

All these done by "moral" people.



We like to think our moral compass doesn't move much.

If it was my family slaughtered by terrorists or even a drugged-out killer, my moral compass would spin like a high-speed turbine.

Cultural morality is just a reflection of the culture.

Morality doesn't dictate the culture, culture dictates morality.

ANyway, my 2 cents.

a reply to: JinMI

Even your parents disfavor for example as in far East religions. I mean taking it to an argumentative position, one could say that's exactly how it's happening within the wokesphere with the virtue signaling. We know NIMBYists are prevalent yet yearn for that social acceptance from their social class.

Religions work the exact same way though... you do "the right things" for social acceptance.

Real people don't need that construct.

They don't "need" social acceptance.

They just are who they are.

I would argue that morality largely is subjective. Sure, there are easy topics to define as immoral. Murder, theft, rape etc. Yet what of the Vikings of ages past? Moors? Huns?

Murder, theft and rape were things that were swiftly dealt with in the Viking community. The same with Moors or Huns.

You were I think talking about the murders, thefts and rapes that happened to their enemies.

Another topic entirely... that topic is war.

Not morals.