Zelenskyi in Denmark for a formal hand over of outdated F16s

a reply to: 0bserver1
Can you imagine being nothing but a sh!tty comedian and getting Biden to install you as president and give you $ 100 billion to play with.
All for the low price of letting your whole younger generation be slaughtered by Russia, to bait them into some calamitous outcome ?
Maybe a small secret rebate on the cash, and run a few Mengele-style labs for us.
Obviously Zelensky thought that the massacre of his country’s teens and 20-somethings was a small price indeed.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: EternalShadow

Funny how the comparatively less capable Soviet designs Ukraine is using are still surviving just fine, but the more capable Western fighters (shown in actual testing against actual MiGs flown by trained pilots) are going to just be swatted from the skies like nothing.

I think Zelenskyi should be happy with what he is getting , F-16s are Multi million dollar Jets and very capable when piloted correctly .

Hints it's not the Jet it's the Pilot in the Jet.

a reply to: paraphi

To add onto this. Ukraine at one point in time had aircraft manufacturing. Which is something I bet that Russia has been eyeballing to take for themselves.

You can read up more on that here. Linky

a reply to: asabuvsobelow

To a degree, but that’s assuming all things are equal. In the 1980s it was thought that the MiG-29 was the equal, or better than just about anything the West had. After the Berlin Wall came down, NATO tried to incorporate the East German Fulcrums into their missions, with interesting results.

The first thing they found is that Soviet designs were very heads down. The pilot had to look down for almost everything, as opposed to the West HOTAS design. Western philosophy was to put everything required to fight the aircraft at the pilots fingertips, and let the pilot look out of the aircraft as much as possible. With the Fulcrum, nothing was where you’d expect it, the radar displays didn’t display on the HUD, and the navigation equipment was down low.

The really surprising thing was that the Fulcrum had effectively no long range capability. The radar was outranged by every system used in western fighters, the track and lock capabilities were inferior, and the general use was not intuitive. The range of the aircraft was poor enough that long range should have been something that was concentrated on.

At medium range the aircraft could fight, but was outclassed again by almost everything flown against it. It was capable of fighting at medium range, but again, it wasn’t good at that range. It won a few fights at medium range, but lost far far more.

Where the Fulcrum really owned the fight was short range. Armed with the R-73, and a helmet mounted cueing system, the Fulcrum beat everything put against it hands down.

Put two F-16s against each other and the superior pilot wins. In thiS case, a Ukrainian Viper against a Russian fighter, and I think luck is going to play a big big role.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Yes a very accurate assessment on the MIG-29 .

It was an Aesthetically pleasing Aircraft ..really even to this day it's design is one of my favorites . And yes Russia seems to place more emphasis on Maneuverability and Close in Dog fighting than it ever has on Avionics and that rings true even today.

F-16 while slower and less maneuverable has the Superior Avionics and Weapons lay out.

Like the F-35 and Su-57 , It is similar head to head match albeit a much more modern one. I feel you and I have had this discussion before concerning the F-35 and Su-57 .

F this, F that, SU this Mig that, BS BS BS. Just a quick mention of the man heh. The man in the cockpit IS the fighter not the machine. And they aint gonna train up Ukrainian pilots in a couple of months. Yeah, give em a quick crash course, throw em up and a snotty nosed teen with a decent ground to air and Whoops no plane.

a reply to: crayzeed

And if you have a pilot that’s spending all his time looking down, in a plane that is designed for short and medium range, vs a pilot that doesn’t have to look down, in a plane good at all ranges, that man in the cockpit means less. In a straight up dogfight, experience matters. In a long range fight where they never see each other, technology gives the edge.

What interests me is can they make a difference and how they will be used and can Ukraine keep them from being hit on the ground.

One would think the way Ukraine has been clamoring for them, even 41 could have an impact if they can get enough sorties out of them.

Can they help pound the Russian defensive positions enough for a breakthrough?

Can they cut back the Russian bombers from lobbing cruise missiles?

What will the Russian response be If Ukraine can put these to effective use?

Cant Russia just pound Ukraines air bases over and over?

a reply to: putnam6

The Russian bombers lob the majority of the cruise missiles from behind their own airspace or from the middle of the black sea, they don't venture into Ukrainian airspace.

I don't see the F16 being able to enter into Russian airspace ether all the same without being severely challenged.

As to the Russian response, well what can they say, considering their own antics in the sky?

As to being able to pound Ukraine's air bases at will.

That will depend on location, if they are within artillery range(which would be silly), and whether or not they have the cover of an air defense system like the Patriot, which i imagine they will.

a reply to: flice

Thanks for setting things straight!

This is what I heard from a Romania-based Serbian contact regarding Ukrainians:

"Actually, we got so tired of them that we have a bunch of protests to kick them out, but media is censoring them because having protests against them may mean that we sympathize with Russians which is not true. We just hate both."

"That’s why russia, in an attempt to win the war, sent a letter to RO, HU, PL saying that if they help them, they can get back their well deserved lands. Well, no one replied. Of course we want our people back, but not playing dirty. Even now, zelenski spoke in the romanian parliament and said 'thanks for your help, maybe if you give us more money we will think about letting those romanian minorities study their language in some schools in Ukraine... maybe.'"

Actually, I have the impression that Romania, Hungary, and Poland, each having territorial claims in Ukraine, are just biding their time, waiting for Russia to exhaust itself and Ukraine to be weakened enough, so they can partition it for themselves without Russia's intervention.

These aren't merely warnings issued from Russia's state propaganda machine (I am no stranger to Russia's capacity for deviousness in wartime) or from pro-Russian Ukrainian military officers, analysts, bloggers.

There are predictions about Europe devouring itself, America betraying Europe, China betraying Russia; it is a given that if a country begins to show signs of weakness, the other countries will exploit it for their own benefit. One of my Russian-based seer contacts recently informed me: "There are secret talks and plans to carve up Ukraine into 4 pieces". I have yet to corroborate it with other seers.

Btw can you provide non-biased Danish sources for your claims in the last two paragraphs?

a reply to: Astyanax

"The results from this poll also confirm our claim from May last year that – contrary to the journalistic cliché that the war has divided the EU into a hawkish east and a dovish west – at least three different blocks have emerged."

This appears to be confirmation bias. There are really only two sides in a conflict, neutrality is siding with the enemy.

This year, western Europe has been turning inward to deal with their own problems, it's mainly eastern European states are keeping up the momentum. Not out of any real sympathy for Ukraine (who they view as no different from Russians), but fear for the return of Soviet Union days.

On the other hand, the division between north/east Europe and west/south Europe makes a lot of sense. Europeans were historically a race of fighters who had to adapt to the harsh cold in the North, but when they settled into the milder southern climates, they subdued their frenzy for battle.

Either way, Europe is not seeking a truly lasting peace, but an artificially maintained peace, effectively a perpetual ceasefire.

a reply to: Raggedyman

How will Ukraine train pilots ?

Not this way i am sure.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: putnam6

The Russian bombers lob the majority of the cruise missiles from behind their own airspace or from the middle of the black sea, they don't venture into Ukrainian airspace.

I don't see the F16 being able to enter into Russian airspace ether all the same without being severely challenged.

As to the Russian response, well what can they say, considering their own antics in the sky?

As to being able to pound Ukraine's air bases at will.

That will depend on location, if they are within artillery range(which would be silly), and whether or not they have the cover of an air defense system like the Patriot, which i imagine they will.

So Ukraine can't engage over the Black Sea at all? I know in the past there has been somewhat of a warning when the TUs are up. If there was a base north of Odessa they could possibly hit anything off from the Georgian border northward IIRC wasn't one of the Russian bases near Krasnodar? It's well within range. They could even loiter over the Black Sea waiting for a little bit. Hell if nothing else it makes them send them up escorted

As for the air bases, the best I can find is Ukraine at one time had 49 airbases, they have to disperse then they can't all be at one or 2 bases, no way all are defended by the Patriot system last I hear there were only 2 in the country, though they likely have other defenses.

originally posted by: flice

originally posted by: Spacespider
Denmark strongly supports the EU's restrictive measures against Russia adopted in response to the illegal annexation of Crimea and its actions to destabilize Ukraine.

This got to be some troll post that does not understand Denmark or the power of F16

Denmark "officially" does... I'm Danish, I don't support us trashing billions on Ukraine, while at the same time not being able first and foremost being able to maintain our own infrastructure, in particular the health care sector which is suffering immensely across the board.

Neither do us Americans . Problem is the world is ran by a couple small families . They own everything, they bought off our leaders years and years ago . Healthcare is screwed here too . The owners of our world want to bring as many illegals in as they can , they want the homeless . They want everyone to be dependent on the state . They want to bankrupt the world except for them . Then they’ll have global socialism and absolute total final control . Wake the heck up and educate yourself . I myself tend to value freedom

Ukraine is remains effectively a no-fly zone for are Russian planes and pilots.

The F16 could approve crucial. NATO has been training secretly them for near a year and not last month as reported.

Alot of Russian anti air are destoyed. The Russian MoD has ordered more Tor-M2 anti-air systems but cannot make fast enough.

We Russian had 1500 aircraft. But like tanks, All left outside to rot. The defence budgets to maintain them stolen by are generals.

Russian pilots refuse to go. The survival data chances is lower than the data chances of allied WW2 bombing raids over germany.

The Ukrainians freely operate trains and supply trucks because due to the limited risk of Russian air attacks.

This allows Ukrainian to transport supplies to Kyiv and Odesa with out no difficulty. if Russian aircraft could control Ukraine sky, dropping bombs without Ukraine air defense , as in Syria, the war would undergo a significant transformation into Russia favor.

Putin retaliating greatly to this news.

Full total mobilisation of 1200000 is unofficially confirmed. Russia will have no sons left.

Where is the 900000 military 554000 paramilitary that already went? where are they?

Putin could have one. But he believed his own propaganda that the Ukrainian peoples would want to be repatriated into Russian Empire. the window of opportune is lost.

He went for Kyiv expecting some open arms, instead, he should of secure west border to blockade NATO surplies, and blockade black sea. and then all he had to do was control skies. and Ukraine would starve and submit.

It is futile. We Russians now no it is over and want out. We give back the east but keep crimea. but porobaly no longer possilbe. This was a bait forPutin to destroy us. And because he is stupid ego and delusional he took it. We normal younger Russian new it was a US bait.

Many of us patriots beleive Putin is conspiracy in Western double agent. He spent a lot of shade, undocumented time in East Berlin. And was known to congregate with opposite western colleagues. Including known communist Merkel. He is needlessly destroying the motherland as US handlers instructed. to break up Russia.


Вернём себе Родину

originally posted by: hjesterium
Actually, I have the impression that Romania, Hungary, and Poland, each having territorial claims in Ukraine, are just biding their time, waiting for Russia to exhaust itself and Ukraine to be weakened enough, so they can partition it for themselves without Russia's intervention.

Your brain is addled by watching too much YouTube, or whatever.

The only country that is acting like it's 1815 is Russia. Everyone else is committed to preserving the sovereignty of Ukraine. Poland, or anyone else, is not going to invade Ukraine. For one thing - why would they want a border with the murderous Russians?

EDIT to add that no country has a territorial dispute with Ukraine, except Russia, who is illegally occupying a good portion of Ukraine.

a reply to: VladimirS

Interesting post.

No-one wants to destroy Russia.
All people want is for Putin to stop the invasion, retreat to the previously agreed borders and stop provoking and agitating in Russia's former satellite and ex-Warsaw pact countries.

Far, far too many Ukrainian and Russian people have died in this needless and senseless war.

Welcome to ATS, hope to see more of you around the boards.

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