Zelenskyi in Denmark for a formal hand over of outdated F16s

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Raggedyman

I don't think Russia has a year or two any more than Ukraine does given the current state of the place and regime.

How so?

Russia isn't going to voluntarily leave the eastern oblasts or Crimea, somebody who has less troops and air support will have to evict them.

No indication Russia is about to collapse from within either as much as it we all like for it to be so.

a reply to: putnam6

How so?

Apparently, it is not exactly a bed of roses over there right now, and coming apart at the seams.

Plenty of indication that Russia can't keep this up for an additional two years putnam6.

Same with Ukraine, but for different reasons.

You realise that Putin has damaged the Russian economy in ways that are not even yet fully known with repercussions in the post for decades to come.

And that the place will be the European pariah for the foreseeable future no matter which way the war in Ukraine turns out.

Whilst its extremely unlikely to disintegrate as a nation Russia's future is apt to be a hard slog to come back from the kind of damage Putin's regime has sown.

www.consilium.europa.eu...#:~:text=The%20Russian%20economy%20is%20shrinking&text=It%20is%20esti mated%20that%20in,growth%20in%202023%20(0.7%25).
carnegieendowment.org...
www.economicsobservatory.com...

And then there is the doubling in size of the borders Russia now shares with NATO nations, good luck to her trying to police and/or enforce those in the coming years given the additional burdens concerned with doing so.

Kind of out of the frying pan into the fire type situation if ever there was one really and all down the antics and whims of one man.

originally posted by: Spacespider
Denmark strongly supports the EU's restrictive measures against Russia adopted in response to the illegal annexation of Crimea and its actions to destabilize Ukraine.

This got to be some troll post that does not understand Denmark or the power of F16

Denmark "officially" does... I'm Danish, I don't support us trashing billions on Ukraine, while at the same time not being able first and foremost being able to maintain our own infrastructure, in particular the health care sector which is suffering immensely across the board.

originally posted by: Prodiver
Still brainwashed I see.

What points from the previous poster do you disagree with? Simply saying someone is brainwashed adds nothing to the discussion, or helps advance anyone's knowledge of your opinion or perspective.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: flice

outdated Danish fighter jets

The F-16 is currently in service with 25 countries around the world, one of them being the USA.

Many of us dont really give a flying F about Ukraine or their problems

In this Europe-wide public-opinion poll, Denmark emerged of one of the strongest supporters of Ukraine against Russia.

Danish Defense Department statement on F35 purchase

This paper written on behalf of the Defense Department in 2018.

"I 2007 vurderede Forsvarsministeriet, at F-16-flyene
kunne holdes i operativ drift til ca. 2020, men at de derefter
ville være nedslidte og teknologisk utidssvarende.2"

Translates to:

"In 2007, the Ministry of Defense estimated that the F-16 aircraft
could be kept in operational operation for approx. 2020, but that they then
would be worn down and technologically out of date."

The politicians made sure to emphasize how bad the situation was in the media... left not much to interpret beyond Denmark being in trouble if we didn't get those F-35.

In regards to polling. I admire your innocence when it comes to be believe the validity of polls. When I moved to Copenhagen some 14 years ago, one of the first part time jobs I had was at a polling call center.
Trust me, it's VERY easy to tilt the preference and outcome of such polls, especially when the polls have been ordered by government agencies or those they collaborate with. Another less aggressive way would be to ask the polling questions the right way.

This is how oppinions are driven.....

Think Karine Jean-Pierre like oppinion driving. Once it's on paper in one way or another or has been uttered from a podium, it suddenly becomes truth.

If you instead asked:
- "What matters most... giving billions to drive Ukraines / NATO proxy war with Russia or assign the necessary funds (which are less) to our faltering health care system, that now has 2 years wait for psychiatric patients and illegally postpone cancer patient treatment?

What do you really think they would support most?

a reply to: Prodiver

Still brainwashed I see.

If you say so.

Why the Russian hatred? Or is it because whatever the msm tell’s you to hate?

I don't hate them per say, but if i was Ukrainian i would, because they invaded their nation and choose to reign down cruise missile barrages on their towns and cities.

ATS should change from “Deny Ignorance” to “Be Ignorance”

Russians are in the wrong postcode, not Ukraine, no denying that fact.

Have a nice day.

Add on top of that... we have three media streams running when it comes to Ukraine/ NATO vs Russia.

1. Russia is crap, bad army, losing so much hardware, they are using ww2 gear etc.

2. Ukraine is in danger! We need to send them much more; more material, more money 200 billion dollars is not enough!

3. Ukraine is doing awesome against the Russians. Russia will lose this...

All depending on the needs of the situation. One week it will be 2... then 3, immediately followed by 1, then 2 again and so on. And we sit like good dogs, just drooling away nodding at the "them vs us" narrative.
All while our infrastructure is suffering.

We shouldn't be trying to save the world, before we have our own house in order. And when we do have, we shouldn't be trying to save the world, by conjuring up crisis that enables us to do so.

ANY given government should have 1 prime objective. Make sure the internal mechanisms that provide their citizens a steady and safe life is in order. If those mechanisms depends on the resources of other countries, or are fragile from relation to perceived enemies, well... you messed up.

The problem is, the US way of safe-guarding the world, doesn't seem to come without a heavy cost for those they help. I would undertake a position of understanding if the cost matched the expense... but often it seems to be higher or with some government schmuck(s) trying to benefit personally from it in one way or another.

There will NEVER be a time where I would agree to it being better to spend 3 billion in acquisition and 5.5 to 10 billion in running costs before making sure there are enough nurses, teachers, kindergarden pedagogues or elder care workers.

originally posted by: flice


Instead the Danish parliament voted to spent around 5.5 billion dollars on F35s. The argument: Our 40 year old F16s are too old and outdated to protect the country.... enjoy your donation mr Actor.

If it's good enough for the Israeli's who just recently committed to a new batch of F16's and use them daily on combat missions all over the Middle East, then surely the Danish F16's are a nice gift while Ukraine is on a defensive footing against the Russian airforce.

a reply to: flice

unlike russian aircraft U.S. built aircraft are designed to be maintained and upgraded regularly. they don't just tie parts back on or fix broken air frames with bailing wire used as safety wire or duct tape hand held gps to the cockpit instrument panel, or cut off coca cola bottles bottoms as fuel caps. countries that fly them maintain them.

i'd go up in a 40 yr old f-16 that has been maintained over a old mig 31 that just bursts into flames or Mig 35 labeled a dead duck for many suspected reasons that has yet to make any kind of showing like the Su-57.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: putnam6

How so?

Apparently, it is not exactly a bed of roses over there right now, and coming apart at the seams.

Plenty of indication that Russia can't keep this up for an additional two years putnam6.

Same with Ukraine, but for different reasons.

You realise that Putin has damaged the Russian economy in ways that are not even yet fully known with repercussions in the post for decades to come.

And that the place will be the European pariah for the foreseeable future no matter which way the war in Ukraine turns out.

Whilst its extremely unlikely to disintegrate as a nation Russia's future is apt to be a hard slog to come back from the kind of damage Putin's regime has sown.

www.consilium.europa.eu...#:~:text=The%20Russian%20economy%20is%20shrinking&text=It%20is%20esti mated%20that%20in,growth%20in%202023%20(0.7%25).
carnegieendowment.org...
www.economicsobservatory.com...

And then there is the doubling in size of the borders Russia now shares with NATO nations, good luck to her trying to police and/or enforce those in the coming years given the additional burdens concerned with doing so.

Kind of out of the frying pan into the fire type situation if ever there was one really and all down the antics and whims of one man.

Thanks for the links just wanted to see where you were coming from, definitely think economically Russia is strained. However, that is s slow-moving process.

I'll say this though if 46 outdated F-16s make a difference here, it will speak volumes about Western air power and this is good for our economy

www.airdatanews.com...

www.msn.com...

Russian Dam Bursts, Washing Away Railroad—Economy To Lose 'Billions'

a reply to: flice

Both wear and technology issues can be overcome. The problem is the money, and the time to do it. A SLEP takes the aircraft out of service for months, and for an Air Force that’s looking to advance their capabilities is a good time to do it. All aircraft have a planned service life, which can be extended. The original service life of an F-16 was about 8,000 hours. Most of the ones currently flying are somewhere around 10-12,000 hours, and have life on them still.

Each maintenance period also improves the capabilities of the aircraft through electronic or system upgrades. The US aircraft are currently getting new radar upgrades that will improve their capabilities significantly. They can’t be extended indefinitely, and they still will have weaknesses against the newer systems, but saying they aren’t useful because they’re old and technologically inferior is not accurate.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Israel just signed for 25 more F-35s. If they do get F-16s, they’ll get Block 70s, which are far more capable out of the box than these will be even after their upgrades before being handed over to Ukraine.

Also, in regards to Russia being affected economically, Im not so sure.

Danish Radio, who is a active partaker in the pro-west narrative on the war, was allowed to go into Russia and speak with Russians on how their daily life was affected by the war. They went shopping with these people.
Ofcourse there was lots of public propaganda highlighting "the poor Russian children affected by the war", but in general, the Russian public has seen little to no effect on their economy. Prices are stable, there is wares to be bought, even the brands that have withdrawn, because the products are just parallel imported instead.

Back last year, when everyone was freaking out about gas prices, the gas stock in Europe reached 100%. Not just because of US gas, but because Russia just moved the gas by the souther pipe instead of Nordstream.

We have a HUGE problem in the west with our media outlets, because 99% of them are biased or directly controlled. Just as Russia have their own outlets that does the opposite version. Apparently it's just so damn hard providing objective data, especially when it can be perceived as bad or raise questions. They would much rather provide oppinion... "This is what you should believe!!! And if you don't you support the enemy!!"

But we seem to be buying into the one closest to home regardless. It's like eating rat poison, well knowing its rat poison, but man it sure is colorful and tastes good.

I highly doubt anyone would have air superiority in todays war. The Russian glide bombs are signs of this as they are launching high and far away from defences.



a reply to: paraphi

a reply to: putnam6

Thanks for the links just wanted to see where you were coming from, definitely think economically Russia is strained. However, that is s slow-moving process.

I think it's time cooler heads prevailed, put it that way.

I'll say this though if 46 outdated F-16s make a difference here, it will speak volumes about Western air power and this is good for our economy

Its not a bad piece of machinery putnam6, still highly maneuverable and can pack a punch even in this day of age.

Again though it's depends on the man as much as the machine, and apparently, there simply is no substitute for training and experience.

Good luck to them, there probably going to need it.

originally posted by: flice
Yesterday Zelenskyi first arrived in Aarhus, Denmark. Later same evening he flew to Copenhagen where he today will be speaking to the Danish Parliament and formally express appreciation for the donation of outdated Danish fighter jets.

Its a spectacle. The government will have it that the Danes support Ukraine. This is a truth with interpretations. Many of us dont really give a flying F about Ukraine or their problems caused by sucking up to NATO for 2 decades followed by a Russian invasion.

When the Danish parliament some 10 years ago or so decided to buy into the F35 platform, we were already having issue with welfare and infrastructure. The projection is and was we are going to be missing 17.000 healthcare workers, teachers etc in 2030.

Instead the Danish parliament voted to spent around 5.5 billion dollars on F35s. The argument: Our 40 year old F16s are too old and outdated to protect the country.... enjoy your donation mr Actor.

Thanks for your opinion. This war is stupid. Prepare for the onslaught of warboners hatred. Not sure what it is about war, but man it really gets both sides of the aisle here (and other countrymen) fired up. I think they just miss their nonstop war footage on cnn and fox. Or maybe its just that so many of us our entire lives keep hearing RUSSIA BAD. Maybe they are, but in this case I do not care. I really do not see where this is an advantage to anyone in the "west". Oh well, it does not matter, it is still a really popular issue, especially here.

Also, I do not care too much about the f-16's in general, its what all the warhawks of the world do. The Soviets supplied pretty much every country with dictators fighter planes and bombers. It is just what these people do. There is no stopping them.

From a strictly educational perspective it will be interesting to see how they perform. ALthough I doubt that the real performance will ever be totally known. I say that as I am starting to think we are entering a new era of drones over manned war machines. Dont worry warboners, I still dont care which side wins. But myself, like the OP, thinks that our tax money could be spent much more wisely and that alot of the money and aid is probably in reality a slush fund or something for the wealthy and connected in our society. Just like it always is.

F-16 is fine, Swedish JAS 39 Gripen might be even better. The former is more available and I guess has better performance, the latter is more versatile, easier to land and service in improvised locations.

Most people in this thread are looking at it from a US perspective, but Ukraine and Russia never developed past 4th generation fighters. They were able to match the USA at one point, but they fell behind. So these fighters are highly relevant in this war. It's a proxy war, but I don't think either side wants to give their most advanced tech: the US doesn't want to give it to Ukraine, and China doesn't want to give it to Russia. Would be risky.

And the Netherlands are sending F16s too.
Why is it that our little country always have to walk with the big guys disgusting.

For those here who are against this can you start complaining at the adres of our government?

Who's callin the shots NATO , or do they really want Russia to put a Nuke on Rotterdam harbor?

History repeats itself what a bunch of @hol€$ we've got here...

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Israel just signed for 25 more F-35s. If they do get F-16s, they’ll get Block 70s, which are far more capable out of the box than these will be even after their upgrades before being handed over to Ukraine.

Yeah see where you are coming from Zaph. There is F-16s and there is the next generation too. Thanks for the heads up help and advice