Original Sin Revealed to be Farce. God's Plan WAY More Mysterious Than Previously Thought

A = ADAM

G = God

==SCENE==

Garden of Eden shortly after A&E ate the forbidden fruit. ADAM converses with God.

==

A: Quick question, no big deal. We were wondering why we’re naked?

G: Wait did you say ‘naked?’ Oh! You finally did the thing. The ONE thing I asked you not to do. Oh Me, oh My. You really did it. I am so mad at you right now, you betcha.

A: Wait. So you knew we we’re naked?

G: What?

A: The snake said when we ate the fruit, we would be like you, and now we know we’re naked.

G: Uh huh.

A: So we only know we’re naked bc you know we’re naked, but how did YOU know we were naked?

G: Uh. I’m God? I know everything. Of course I’d know you’re naked.

A: No no, you created all the animals naked and that’s fine, but for some reason it’s weird for humans to not have clothes.

G: Yup. That’s the premise of the bit.

A: Yeah, well I’m not buying it.

G: Why not?

A: Well first of all, if it’s weird for us to be naked, then it can only mean we’re supposed to be clothed, and since we only realized we need clothes bc we ate the fruit, it also means we were supposed to eat the fruit!

G: …You can’t prove any of that.

A: I just did! Plus I ate the fruit so I know what you know, dumbass. I know all your plans

G: Oh, right. Well, fair warning, when I tell your descendants about this, I’m going to leave out all the parts where you immediately figure out my little scheme.

A: Yeah, I know that too. Remember? [taps head]

G: Yeah, so what do you think?

A: It could work.

G: Bet

A: Bet

[fist bump]

END SCENE.>>

a reply to: ERISunveiled

Wow that sounds crazy, that’s amazing, you may well be the first person ever to come up with the idea of predestination, blown my mind

yep, that was totally the point of the post--predestination. dios mio

a reply to: ERISunveiled

Well isn’t it, “God knew before”?
You seem to assume humanity was meant to be clothed
Was meant to eat the fruit, why?

If a parent says to a child, don’t touch the broken glass, does that make the parent culpable if they have bandaids, does that make the parent a conspirator in harming their child

To be clear, this was not about making a case for predestination. At least not in the way that negates free will. Is it predestination for Mario to get to the castle at the end of the level? I mean, that’s the goal. But how we get there is the game.

In life the goal is to create meaning for it, how we create meaning is the game. And very early on God realized He would have to create "arbitrary” rules to teach us how to be our own person.

It’s like how parents make up rules that aren’t equally important. The point is some rules are made to be broken bc only then do we become our own person. We step outside the shadow our parents cast on us and forge ahead with our own identity. It is essential to our development that we break rules and make our own in the process of becoming. And that’s why God made such a stupid rule like, don’t eat this one fruit.

But that’s the stuff you already know. Even if it isn’t apprehended knowledge—you still intuitively know it’s true.

The real question is—why do we need that dramatic tension in the first place?

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: ERISunveiled

Well isn’t it, “God knew before”?
You seem to assume humanity was meant to be clothed
Was meant to eat the fruit, why?

If a parent says to a child, don’t touch the broken glass, does that make the parent culpable if they have bandaids, does that make the parent a conspirator in harming their child

If you have broken glass lying around, and you leave your child, who is ignorant of the dangers of handling broken glass unattended with it, then yes. You are culpable if they cut themselves on it, even if you warn them. Humans are naturally curious, and we like to find out things for ourselves. Sometimes the only way we can truly learn is the hard way. Sure we could take someone's word for it, but how would we truly know?

I don't believe in the Adam and Eve mythology at all. It's a very poor way of explaining how things are so messed up for us all. The concept of original sin is extremely heinous, making us feel guilty just for being alive, and punishing us for the mistakes of the first two people. The worst part is the blame being put on women which in itself has justified the mistreatment of us for millennia.

a reply to: ERISunveiled

So we would be aware of the consequences of breaking Gods rules?
God created so we would exist, given freedom to choose and learn the ramifications of poor choice

Dramatic tension or is it a promised land that is offered to those who choose to return to it

It seems like you are saying it was Gods plan, original sin, not chosen but somehow forced?

a reply to: MetalChickAmy

Well that might be your experience but not mine
In fact, most people don’t believe in the story of original sin so, who is being blamed for what in relation to myth?
And if you read the story, it’s not a hate rant on women, some very interesting nuances but guessing you wouldn’t know them because, you don’t know the story
If anything, the whole story is a reflection on Adams failure to care for his wife and Gods redemption and care for both, equally

And to criticise a metaphor, really, it’s a metaphor, it’s not literal, it’s to explain a situation in its most basic context with words, unbelievable taking a metaphor to task.
Literally criticising a metaphor, for not being accurate, think about that for a minute.

And just so you know, I have broken glass, told the kids to stay away and gone and gotten a broom, heinous arnt I

And finally “how could we truly know” guess we have to have a bit of faith

It wasn’t God who said Adam would be like God. It was the crafty, lying serpent. So therefore the bet is that it’s not true. God only said Adam would know what good and evil is.

Lots of liberties taken here.

Who said they were supposed to be clothed? They didn't need clothing until after sin crept into the garden.

a reply to: visitedbythem
Great point. I was about to say we’re the only animal with clothes.
We are pretty pale and thin skinned and weak, but I’m not sure why we must wear stuff that no others do. Clothes probably made us lose our fur and claws and badass teeth.
God keeps saying “Don’t do it, please don’t do it” …… and we always do it. I don’t think we need to make it any more involved than that.

Well, if the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evel was actually honey, they would need to cover up all the bee stings when they tore apart the bees nest to get the honey.

Now the tree of life, that was a different thing all together and I doubt if it was actually a tree that was the tree of life.

But what do I know, I am just a mouse.

a reply to: MetalChickAmy

I don't believe in the Adam and Eve mythology at all. It's a very poor way of explaining how things are so messed up for us all. The concept of original sin is extremely heinous, making us feel guilty just for being alive, and punishing us for the mistakes of the first two people. The worst part is the blame being put on women which in itself has justified the mistreatment of us for millennia.

To be fair, Genesis is Judaism. Original sin is Christianity. Judaism rejects original sin simply because people don't inherit the sins of their parents. Deut. 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.".

Genesis is written by multiple authors. The original account relied on symbolics to express Gods blueprint for humankind. Male denotes our spiritual body (made in Gods image). Female denotes our material bodies (made from bone or DNA). Serpent denotes our ego-mind and the apple encompasses sensational bliss. The warning therefore, whilst we continue to allow our ego-mind to chase temporary sensational bliss, we will not achieve everlasting spiritual bliss.

a reply to: ERISunveiled

First the issue is not with nakedness in itself, but with the attitude of the heart. Unclothed, there was no offense in that there were no unright thoughts or intents. Being naked was not the issue. The thoughts and intents of the heart once the pair had stepped into the realm of disobedience were what made nakedness an issue.

Second, yes, there is an enternal and predetermined purpose being worked out that is far beyond our reckoning. A passage from Romans 8 tells us:

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Vers 18 assures us that there is a purpose behind and beyound this process the glory of which we cannot comprehend. The Creator destined that purpose and we are His creation, so we are subject to His purposes and laws.

Vers 20 to 21 tells us that God subjected His creation to "futility" ("vanity" in many translations) in hope. (The Greek carries with it the feel of entropy, but that's a subject for another long discussion.) The hope is the expectation of a certain and predefined end that we, again, cannot comprehend from our point of veiw, but that the Creator deemed worth the cost of everything that would come between the beginning and the ultimate consumation.

Lastly, I leave you with a few lines from one of Wendell Berry's Sabbath Poems, To Sit and Look at Light-filled Leaves:

For all His creatures were His pleasures
And their whole pleasure was to be
What He made them; they sought no gain
Or growth beyond their proper measures,
Nor longed for change or novelty.
The only new thing could be pain.

I'm not sure what you mean by your thread title, but sin is a problem.

My theory is that when God created a cosmos outside of the divine singularity, the potential for all anitpodes came into existence, It was not that God created evil, but simply that there could be no multidimensional cosmos without antipodes. Up exists because of down, left exists because of right, hot exists because of cold, evil exists because of good. In God, there is no evil, no selfishness, no darkness; only good, love and light. In the creation context outside of the godhead, these things become possibilities. They had to be dealt wtih, so a plan was set in motion to do just that.

Cold happens when one removes a heat source. Darkness heppens when one removes a source of light.

Evil was not created by God. Evil is what happens when mankind tries to exclude God.

Creation will be set to rights. That's the whole point.
:

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: MetalChickAmy
...
To be fair, Genesis is Judaism. Original sin is Christianity. Judaism rejects original sin simply because people don't inherit the sins of their parents. Deut. 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.".
...

That passage speaks of judgment. The law simply stated that we were not to punish one person for the sins of another, even if there was a blood relationship. Each stands in judgment for his own actions. The passage has nothing to do the human condition.

If you think that people do not inherit a corrupt sin nature simply by being born human, you apparently have very little to no experience with humankind. Yes, there are people who do good things, but if you look at the world as a whole, it's obvious that entropic chaos is the rule of the day.

a reply to: incoserv

According to Judiasm all children are born sin free. Sin is an action. You cannot inherit actions nor be blamed for the actions of others. We certainly can be influenced by negativity either cultural or by our families. That's entertained in Exodus 34:7

added.... Ezekiel 18:3-4 "As sure as I’m the living God, you’re not going to repeat this saying in Israel any longer. Every soul—man, woman, child—belongs to me, parent and child alike. You die for your own sin, not another’s".

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: incoserv

According to Judiasm all children are born sin free. Sin is an action. You cannot inherit actions nor be blamed for the actions of others. We certainly can be influenced by negativity either cultural or by our families. That's entertained in Exodus 34:7

added.... Ezekiel 18:3-4 "As sure as I’m the living God, you’re not going to repeat this saying in Israel any longer. Every soul—man, woman, child—belongs to me, parent and child alike. You die for your own sin, not another’s".

The Mosaic Law taught that sin was passed on as a genetic inheritance. That is why when a male had an emission of semen he was considered unclean. And when a women had a menstrual flow she was considered unclean. And again when she gave birth.

"‘If a woman becomes pregnant and gives birth to a male, she will be unclean for seven days, just as she is in the days of the impurity when she is menstruating."-Leviticus 12:2.

"“‘Now if a man has an emission of semen, he should bathe his whole body in water and be unclean until the evening. He must wash with water any garment and any skin with semen on it, and it will be unclean until the evening. “‘When a man lies with a woman and has an emission of semen, they should bathe in water and be unclean until the evening. “‘If a woman has a discharge of blood from her body, she will continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days. Anyone touching her will be unclean until the evening."-Leviticus 15:16-19.

Jehovah made the Israelites understand that the very use of their procreative powers made them unclean in his eyes. And that is because they passed on impurity to their offspring. They passed on sin.

That is why the High Priest had to make a sacrifice for the whole nation before Jehovah God for the sins of all the people on the day of Atonement. This was also in an illustration sense, showing the sacrifice God's son Jesus would give on behalf of the sins of all humankind that exercise faith in it.

The Psalmist was inspired to say that no human could redeem even a brother in God's eyes:

"None of them can ever redeem a brother
Or give to God a ransom for him,
(The ransom price for their life is so precious
That it is always beyond their reach)."
-Psalms 49:7-8.

I think the dialog you created for this scenario is clever.

It made me think about what other animal wears clothes, on purpose.
Hermit crabs is all I could come up with.’

I sincerely doubt that any of the events in the Garden of Eden actually happened as they were written. I think it is an allegory. It could very well have historical and philosophical significance, but I have yet to figure out what the story is actually talking about.

I do believe that there are some religious scholars who know the actual meaning of the story, maybe I could find it if I did a bit of research.

I believe the story has to do with the "fall" of man. There is the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil (with the apple). There is some sort of "awakening" that happens when Adam and Eve eat the fruit. It could be what separates them from animals, but at a price, now man has the capability of sin.

I do agree that man has the capability of sin - in other words, I think this has to do with being selfish and things like that. Supposedly animals are not capable of sin, I have been observing my pets quite closely and I seem to come to the same conclusion... they are very innocent

If I had to guess, maybe it is talking about some sort of genetic modification of early man. It is interesting to note that eternal life was on the table for mankind. At the moment, our genes have clocks built into them to kill us off on purpose.

a reply to: randomuser

I cannot see any link between ceremony body cleanliness and original sin.

If you examine 1 Corinthians 15:3–7. Where it says "He rose again the third day according to the Scripture" it is definitely not talking about Jewish scriptures. Its likely referring to Christian scriptures. It seems "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures" is also pointing to a christian scriptures. If those scriptures were written after Paul's time then 1 Corinthians 15:3–7 may have been a latter interpolation. It certainly doesn't appear to be Paul's writings to my novice eyes.

Ezekiel 18:20-22 just couldn't be any clearer ... “The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. “But if the wicked will turn from all his SINS THAT HE HATH COMMITTED, and keep all my statuses and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him; in his righteousness that he hath done, he shall live.”.