the shape of proteins requires an engineer

originally posted by: cooperton
Biology is very indicative of design though. Proteins behave like micromolecular bots.

Only because that's what we currently relate them to. Who's to say in 10 years time we determine them to be not like bots but dumb particles following standard laws of nature?

God-of-the-gaps makes more sense than random-chance-of-the-gaps.

No, it doesn't. Because saying, "God did it" only begs the question(s) of where did God come from? Who made God, how did he come into existence?

And if there were a God and he designed us, why do such a sh*tty job? Why make us so fragile, so weak in comparison to many other animals on this planet that he said we have dominion over?

Why don't we have claws? Why don't our limbs and teeth and eyes regenerate? Why can't we see infrared or xray or gamma radiation, you know, the energy wavelengths that cause us harm?

As humans, when we design things, we design them with the best tech and abilities we can at the time - we dont design them to fail or fall apart. We would ideally like things to be perfect. But they are not. And God can't do that either - so what does that say about your God?

He either doesn't exist, or is a sh*t designer. And for an omnipotent being, he's pretty stupid.

a reply to: whereislogic

From your own source:

Editors of science journals often​—but not always—​submit papers to other scientists for review before publishing them. This practice, called peer review, theoretically weeds out erroneous and fraudulent articles. “Science is self-​correcting in a way that no other field of intellectual endeavor can match,” Isaac Asimov says. “Science is self-​policing in a way that no other field is.” He marveled that “scandal is so infrequent.”

I've researched somewhat on this subject about fraud in science/peer review and it's more prevalent in the type of sciences, such as psychology or social sciences but not in those sciences such as is the subject of this thread, namely biomolecular science because not only is the science observational but has biological and chemical realities.

Catching up on the basics:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

originally posted by: noonebutme

Only because that's what we currently relate them to. Who's to say in 10 years time we determine them to be not like bots but dumb particles following standard laws of nature?

We already know how ATP synthase works pretty thoroughly. It works like a motor. It's far from a dumb particle.

And if there were a God and he designed us, why do such a sh*tty job?

Make a better human then, it'd be very lucrative.

originally posted by: noonebutme

Only because that's what we currently relate them to. Who's to say in 10 years time we determine them to be not like bots but dumb particles following standard laws of nature?

So we need to follow some lines of logic here. If God created the universe then it is safe to say that everything in it would follow the standard laws of the universe/nature since he created it, yes? So what this means is that with either intelligent design or not the laws we know would be and act the same. This is why debating something outside of our universe is called an unfalsifiable statement, so useless to even debate.

The problem is creationists believe that life must have been a special event, I guess, not following the natural laws that maybe God created, but needed a little extra magic to happen. This makes zero sense other than they feel it is needed this way to support their faith.

originally posted by: noonebutme

He either doesn't exist, or is a sh*t designer. And for an omnipotent being, he's pretty stupid.

I brought this point up a number of times in which God would make perfection, evolution only makes what is good enough. Like our eyes, if your eyes were a TV it would have the power cable go right through the front tube...i.e. really F'ed up design. While the octopus has amazing eyes 10 times better than ours, maybe because of the low light of the ocean they get the good eyes and we get the power cord through the front tube eyes.

We can look at things like our joints, why men can get inguinal hernias, the philtrum above our lips, hiccups, etc., etc. Today we can look at most parts of our bodies and come up with a better design. In a few 100 years we might be able to say the same with our brains. No one touches any of this and just says the magic of life is perfect no matter what, but give us another 1000 years and we will have the perfect life., and so kind of hard to say it only comes from an all-powerful God.

a reply to: Xtrozero

All human design flaws are built in on purpose to test your humanity. What will you do and say about imperfections? Will you defame God for it showing how vindictive you are or will you cherish the good things you have. Your comments prove why you should not have been made perfect in the first place. I truly pity your lack of understanding and lack of even a tiny bit of wisdom regarding how you are designed and what you are saying. It's really pathetic. Not just you but other posters saying the same sadly ignorant things.

a reply to: Xtrozero

The key word in my point was, 'omnipotent'. This God people go on about is meant to know all and see all and have unlimited power.

Thererefore, 'design' is hardly what he does. He would make someone perfect. Otherwise, why make something that is a poor design. Such as our eyes, joints, teeth, regenerative capabilities, allowing cancer in children, etc.

These are things and engineer would avoid if they knew how to. As i said before, when humans design things, we dont design them to fail. We try our best with what we know at the time.

So again, either God is a sh*t, sloppy and lazy engineer, or he doesn't exist.

I say the latter

Who made the Engineer?

I am more persuaded by the eons of time and the slow evolution, natural experimentation and life and death, that has resulted in complex organisms. Just because we don't fully understand it all yet, does not mean that someone intervened to nudge things along. It just means we don't understand it all at the moment.

originally posted by: paraphi
Who made the Engineer?

God is unbegotten. He always existed and therefore never needed to be created. It is the meaning of Alpha-Omega. This actually solves the something from nothing paradox... something always existed

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
a reply to: Xtrozero

All human design flaws are built in on purpose to test your humanity.

It is sin that causes death and disease. People straying from the divine order leaves them vulnerable to an existence alienated from the source of life..

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
a reply to: Xtrozero

All human design flaws are built in on purpose to test your humanity. What will you do and say about imperfections? Will you defame God for it showing how vindictive you are or will you cherish the good things you have. Your comments prove why you should not have been made perfect in the first place. I truly pity your lack of understanding and lack of even a tiny bit of wisdom regarding how you are designed and what you are saying. It's really pathetic.

Not just you but other posters saying the same sadly ignorant things.

At the beginning of the creation of humanity did God not create us as perfect in a perfect utopian Eden? What boggles my mind is that humanity should not have disobeyed God or rather mistrusted God's plan and ate from the tree of knowledge if we were indeed created perfect.

So I can only think that God's creations are inherently flawed but was this really the creator's initial intent? I think not because God punished Adam and Eve for their actions.

This perfect vs. non-perfect hypocrisy of creation stories, or God-made vs. nature-made human beings, has always made me flip flop between both theories. Is that ignorance, lack of wisdom, or just the hypocrisy and lack of evidence leaves me sitting on the fence, once again?

originally posted by: quintessentone


At the beginning of the creation of humanity did God not create us as perfect in a perfect utopian Eden? What boggles my mind is that humanity should not have disobeyed God or rather mistrusted God's plan and ate from the tree of knowledge if we were indeed created perfect.

So I can only think that God's creations are inherently flawed but was this really the creator's initial intent? I think not because God punished Adam and Eve for their actions.

This perfect vs. non-perfect hypocrisy of creation stories, or God-made vs. nature-made human beings, has always made me flip flop between both theories. Is that ignorance, lack of wisdom, or just the hypocrisy and lack of evidence leaves me sitting on the fence, once again?

How I read it, Adam and Eve were living as archetypal human beings. Without death or disease. The fall of humankind led to death and disease, but even that seems to be part of God's plan. If Adam and Eve hadn't fallen, then they would still be the only souls in existence. It also makes sense that a soul first germinates in the darkness of the soil before ascending to the light, rather than just being planted as a mature plant in a garden like Adam and Eve.

This temporary world of pain and suffering is giving us context of how awesome eternal limitlessness will be. Otherwise, Like Adam and Eve, we wouldn't know how great we have it living in archetypal paradise.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: quintessentone


At the beginning of the creation of humanity did God not create us as perfect in a perfect utopian Eden? What boggles my mind is that humanity should not have disobeyed God or rather mistrusted God's plan and ate from the tree of knowledge if we were indeed created perfect.

So I can only think that God's creations are inherently flawed but was this really the creator's initial intent? I think not because God punished Adam and Eve for their actions.

This perfect vs. non-perfect hypocrisy of creation stories, or God-made vs. nature-made human beings, has always made me flip flop between both theories. Is that ignorance, lack of wisdom, or just the hypocrisy and lack of evidence leaves me sitting on the fence, once again?

How I read it, Adam and Eve were living as archetypal human beings. Without death or disease. The fall of humankind led to death and disease, but even that seems to be part of God's plan. If Adam and Eve hadn't fallen, then they would still be the only souls in existence. It also makes sense that a soul first germinates in the darkness of the soil before ascending to the light, rather than just being planted as a mature plant in a garden like Adam and Eve.

This temporary world of pain and suffering is giving us context of how awesome eternal limitlessness will be. Otherwise, Like Adam and Eve, we wouldn't know how great we have it living in archetypal paradise.

How all that sounds so nice and anything and everything that transpires will all be God's plan, one problem, God was angry and punished them for eating from the tree of knowledge. How I read that, is humans were created in a flawed state and continue this flawed state as evidenced by how we trash this planet and wage war endlessly.

So here I sit on the fence wondering if there is a God, what is God's new plan for us. As some will say, we are abandoned by God. Others say it's God's plan and nobody can know God's plan.

I like your theory of the soul germinating in the soil part because maybe that magic energy is actually the spark that creation of life needs to begin.

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed

All human design flaws are built in on purpose to test your humanity.

A very convenient solution to a real problematic situation. So the flaws in all life are the same? Do the flaws let's say in a tree test it in some way?

What will you do and say about imperfections? Will you defame God for it showing how vindictive you are or will you cherish the good things you have. Your comments prove why you should not have been made perfect in the first place.

My comments suggest that if God made the universe then he did it using the natural laws he created within. What this means is that there is no predetermined direction for life, but that doesn't mean it wasn't still an intelligent design.

I truly pity your lack of understanding and lack of even a tiny bit of wisdom regarding how you are designed and what you are saying. It's really pathetic.

Not just you but other posters saying the same sadly ignorant things.

So we are like we are because God wants us to struggle through our humanity or evolution just makes what works, maybe not even good, but it works.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed

All human design flaws are built in on purpose to test your humanity.

A very convenient solution to a real problematic situation. So the flaws in all life are the same? Do the flaws let's say in a tree test it in some way?

What will you do and say about imperfections? Will you defame God for it showing how vindictive you are or will you cherish the good things you have. Your comments prove why you should not have been made perfect in the first place.

My comments suggest that if God made the universe then he did it using the natural laws he created within. What this means is that there is no predetermined direction for life, but that doesn't mean it wasn't still an intelligent design.

I truly pity your lack of understanding and lack of even a tiny bit of wisdom regarding how you are designed and what you are saying. It's really pathetic.

Not just you but other posters saying the same sadly ignorant things.

So we are like we are because God wants us to struggle through our humanity or evolution just makes what works, maybe not even good, but it works.

I know you want an answer from him/her but I have to interject because I have to be present and vocal in my lifetime.

Anyway, nobody knows God's plan including God giving us no predetermined direction for life...we are most definitely on some direction for humanity. Call it evolution, call it neo-evolution but it's there as evidenced by our observations and the threads here on ATS.

We as humans are changing and people are in fear.

If God is the engineer then why the fear?

originally posted by: noonebutme

Thererefore, 'design' is hardly what he does. He would make someone perfect. Otherwise, why make something that is a poor design. Such as our eyes, joints, teeth, regenerative capabilities, allowing cancer in children, etc.

These are things and engineer would avoid if they knew how to. As i said before, when humans design things, we dont design them to fail. We try our best with what we know at the time.

Also, why are we not constantly improving as this event of life plays out? That is what engineers do, its it? It seems the suggestion is God made life with a click of his fingers in its current form but doesn't monitor his creation and improve it along the way also with a click of his fingers.

Your point also plays into why would God care about human morality and constantly entice them to do things against his will as it is also built into us all. Is it only humans or all life that God plays this game with in some way?

originally posted by: quintessentone

Anyway, nobody knows God's plan including God giving us no predetermined direction for life...we are most definitely on some direction for humanity. Call it evolution, call it neo-evolution but it's there as evidenced by our observations and the threads here on ATS.

Species come and go, I'm sure we will too. That seems to be speeding up as we build ourselves in civilized fortresses. All fun and games now, but if SHTF we are all dead in like a month...lol Maybe back in the 1800s we could survive some catastrophe, but not so today, and even worst as we go along. I often wonder if the end to natural intelligence is AI as AI is not affected by all the things that would wipe us out including evolution.

We as humans are changing and people are in fear.

If God is the engineer then why the fear?

Because God is faith-based, and not physical.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
Your point also plays into why would God care about human morality and constantly entice them to do things against his will as it is also built into us all. Is it only humans or all life that God plays this game with in some way?

Well, exactly. People who believe in God, and that he created us, designed us, cannot explain why he did such a poor job, given what we know right now about the rest of nature around us.

Now, I don't discount the possibility, that perhaps, some higher intelligent being(s) might have diddled with our DNA countless years ago, which led to our current development. That's possble, though, highly improbable.

But, given how evolution works, the vast amounts of evidence for it, our current 'design' fits into that paradigm: as in, not a perfect design, but a functional one. One that came along as a matter of need over want.

To me that makes far more rational, logical sense, than some supreme all knowing, all seeing entity, that has existed always and forever but doesnt have the first notion of kinesthesiology??

For example why would 'God' allow these mishaps? WHere was his red pen that day? nautil.us...

originally posted by: noonebutme

Well, exactly. People who believe in God, and that he created us, designed us, cannot explain why he did such a poor job, given what we know right now about the rest of nature around us.

This is explained in the first few chapters of Genesis. The fall of humankind led to death and disease. The flood was also a point when a lot of the prowess of humankind was removed so that they weren't so malignant upon the earth. We inhabit human bodies that were reduced in potential in order to mitigate the potential for destruction that we can wreak upon the earth.

But, given how evolution works, the vast amounts of evidence for it

Name one example of a population of organisms evolving into something distinctly new. The research actually says evolution doesn't happen. 73,000+ generations of E. Coli were artificially selected to evolve and not a single evidence that shows it can become anything but E. Coli. It can't even change into some other bacteria, it remains E. Coli. To put things in perspective, 73,000 generations of humans is about 1.5 million years. That is approximately 33% of the time theorized to transition an ape-like creature into a human. So if we can't expect any apparent shift in changing into something distinctly new in that amount of time, it is safe to say evolution does not happen.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

Because God is faith-based, and not physical.

Evolution is also faith-based. There are more recorded instances of virgin-birth than there are of a population of organisms becoming anything distinctly new.

originally posted by: noonebutme

Your point also plays into why would God care about human morality and constantly entice them to do things against his will as it is also built into us

Well, exactly. People who believe in God, and that he created us, designed us, cannot explain why he did such a poor job, given what we know right now about the rest of nature around us.

Now, I don't discount the possibility, that perhaps, some higher intelligent being(s) might have diddled with our DNA countless years ago, which led to our current development. That's possble, though, highly improbable.

But, given how evolution works, the vast amounts of evidence for it, our current 'design' fits into that paradigm: as in, not a perfect design, but a functional one. One that came along as a matter of need over want.

To me that makes far more rational, logical sense, than some supreme all knowing, all seeing entity, that has existed always and forever but doesnt have the first notion of kinesthesiology??

The part that I find frustrating in all this is the Creationists just cannot understand that if all life evolved from simple forms to what we have had for billions of years to what we see today would still be God's design. So this never-ending argument is incorrectly aligning the "why" we are here with the "how" was it done and they just cannot accept a rational how and constantly apply it to the why and basically say it was magic.

I don't typically debate the intelligent design part and like to keep to the how of the argument because it is an unfalsifiable argument that goes nowhere in the end.

originally posted by: cooperton

Evolution is also faith-based. There are more recorded instances of virgin-birth than there are of a population of organisms becoming anything distinctly new.

Life is physically here and so we can interact and physically study it. Where that study goes who knows, but I can reach out and touch it. I don't know why you think Evolution is a bad word, if the end result is intelligent design then evolution will add that to the mix. God is an unfalsifiable discussion and just sits in the realm of faith.

Your studies are extremely biased and so you only look for what you feel agrees with you and don't just let the chips fall where they may. Your debate all this time is not to prove God, but to fight against the concept of evolution that would still be God's design if you accepted we just didn't magically pop into existence and it's been a long process. The funny part is evolution would be the same with God or without...