ATS and Keeping Polite Company...

This is just some of my random thoughts about 'things'...

Please feel free to participate...

You know, I often hear it said in casual conversations that "Oh, I don't talk about politics or religion." And I have even heard parents advising their youngsters, "Never discuss politics or religion." And I once saw a sign in a bar that read "please check you politics and religion at the door."

It seemed to me that the overriding ideas was such topics lead to impolite exchanges. But I wondered why. After all, simply saying that one disagrees isn't "impolite" is it? What is it about these topics that make for a "no talking policy?"

And it's not like there aren't any other "topics to be avoided" in our world of 'talking to people.' Heck, there's sports (heaven forbid I should favor an opposing team, or speak ill of your favorite star) fashion (I hate the style you love,) history (the 'version' I accept is not accepted - or flatly rejected by you.,) and so many more...

Then, there are the "instant-reputation" topics... UFO's, cryptids, techno-legendary, myths vs. history... etc. But those aren't to be avoided by threat of impoliteness... those are to be avoided because it give all listeners license to characterize you... usually badly.

ATS became a site where you actually could go and talk about some of these things. Initially the majority of the love came from those who thrilled in finally being able to enter a rational conversation about the 'instant-reputation' topics.. It engendered a welcoming environment to learn and opine about things that evoked the externally-driven "tin-foil hat' memes while ensuring at least some protection from mainstream memery. Then paranormal topics and alternative mythological interpretations came in to finally discuss matters without the perennial objections given by the more materialistically-focused main-streamers.

The two heavy weights in the room, politics and religion were simultaneously accepted as a matter of logic. But politics and religion share something in common... they are the stuff of cults (not disparagingly, just a nod to the 'choices' they represent.)

Being primarily U.S. membership audience was offset by the blessed inclusion of international members... often providing a refreshing alternative perspective, reaffirming the universal tendency to take for granted that other opinions are not driven by the same local circumstances... many learn that 'validity' is not adequately measured without perspective.

Religion in the US has several characteristics that are often unaddressed. The US social order has been predominantly influenced as Christian; but the US also made a strong stand to systematically separate that from government. The US is also young. These elements lead to a social order that needed to be forever reaffirmed to Christians, in Christian terms... enter the potential perception of disparity.

Politics in the US is bipolar (there's a pun in there somewhere.) The theater is amplified malignantly by commerce, which acts as a medium to carry social engineering agendas. And it is mercilessly exploited for 'social' considerations.

Now everyone here at ATS knows that the Terms and Condition crafted over such a long period of time addresses the entire point and effect of maintaining decorum and respect in posting. It actually serves to sustain the community and protect it from itself... and "others."

The T&Cs are requirements of participation... we "get" to "speak" within that framework here ... and yet some seems to characterize it as a "yoke"... they rail against it as a 'limitation' or a suppression of speech... and I can't help but feel this is illogical.

ATS members are all pulling towards a common goal, namely "understanding." It seems self evident to me. The specific topic is irrelevant. None of us are here to change what others think anymore than we are here to have our thinking "changed." In following the metaphor, should we include people who are NOT pulling towards that goal, or who are NOT participating, or simply acting as some kind of a "foil?"

It manifests mainly in the focus on individual speakers, "you are a..." or "people like you..." or "[insert denigration and diminishment herein.]" And frankly those kinds of posts are represented in the bulk of the "thread-killer" posts. It's as if the desire to offend obliterates the maxim that 'offending is never necessary. What's more, it never makes any contribution to the exposition of the subject of disagreement.

No one ever makes a thread "Hey you, [insert member name] you are a jerk!" Yet that is the only way to attack someone "on topic." Of course, ATS doesn't allow threads like that... they are of no interest to anyone interested in discussion.

I'll leave it here... hoping some of you might be kind enough to give me some feedback... I'm perfectly willing to be wrong about stuff; and I am eager to find out where that might be the case...

a reply to: Maxmars

Being offended.

This is a choice, and while I understand your intention of creating, administering and maintaining a polite online culture, that is simply a losing proposition without censorship.

There are words we simply can not use in polite discourse. Not quite ala George Carlin but some that carry with them such a stigma that they make folks audibly gasp. All while ignoring the fact that they are simply words. The person writing or saying them may very well have had the intention to cause the offense but the listener/reader chose to be offended.

In current US culture, this sorcery is being attempted again and again in some form or another.

Trouble begins and ends with censorship. The arbiters of speech are still human and still have life experiences that shape their perspectives that someone, somewhere will see as bias.

ATS is a website. Owned, operated and assumedly wanting to generate a profit or at the very least a ROI. So many free speech ideals go out the window. Even Twitter is not able to escape this.

It's a problem. Many of us do not have the answers, however many of us may be able to come up with them.

After being on another site, I have to say that Above Top Secret is a real gem -
People here actually do discuss subjects without getting upset. And I learn something interesting every time I come here, after all different parts of the country and world are having varied experiences.
I appreciate that!

It's kind of weird isn't it?

I often think about how one person or another fails to see how they "chose" to be offended. I hardly ever think about how a person chose "not" to be offended. In both it seems "the offense" is the star player in the consideration. There may be a way to at least highlight that dynamic where it happens.

I think "freedom of speech" or even "freedom" generally is not defined correctly in terms of discussion. It is a perception, not a quantifiable state. We can't nail down a definition for freedom (and speech that accompanies it) any more specifically than we can define love.

I think it's all about expectations... but perhaps that's another discussion entirely.

a reply to: Maxmars

When I First Joined ATS , it came as a Referral from a Friend who was a Member of the Black Vault Website and Into Obscure Topics of Conversation Usually Related to the UFO Phenomenon , Black Government Projects , and Out of the Box Conspiracy Theories . It was Mostly those Topics that Found a initial Home here on ATS back in 1997 . Since that Time , it has Evolved with the " Political Times " as have we All , and it is Now a Mostly Political Oriented Site due to the World being that way Today . I to Miss the " Old Days " , but they are Long Gone . Time and Tide Wait for No Man .........

Yeah, I went "Rogue" for a short time but every time I posted something I got this "Buzzy" sound complaining that I should go back to ATS so I did.

originally posted by: RonnieJersey
After being on another site, I have to say that Above Top Secret is a real gem -
People here actually do discuss subjects without getting upset. And I learn something interesting every time I come here, after all different parts of the country and world are having varied experiences.
I appreciate that!

Oh, some get upset, usually from having the same discussions 100 different times. Sometimes it's like beating your head against the wall but, you can't take it personally or it'll eat away at you.

And every now and then, there'll be a spark of awakening that makes all the arguing worth it.

originally posted by: RonnieJersey

I'm glad you're here. And I am pleased that you can extract positive things from your experiences here.

But we all know its' not always going to be roses and sunshine. But then what in real life is?

a reply to: Maxmars

I often think about how one person or another fails to see how they "chose" to be offended. I hardly ever think about how a person chose "not" to be offended. In both it seems "the offense" is the star player in the consideration. There may be a way to at least highlight that dynamic where it happens.

Squeaky wheel gets the grease. In current culture, that squeak is incentivized, even lauded. I like to think of it as media and government paying for the doomcrier on the corner to do the job.

I think "freedom of speech" or even "freedom" generally is not defined correctly in terms of discussion. It is a perception, not a quantifiable state. We can't nail down a definition for freedom (and speech that accompanies it) any more specifically than we can define love.

I tend to agree. However a common established norm of freedom exists. It's up to us as individuals to attain it or rather trying to make it "more perfect."

I think it's all about expectations... but perhaps that's another discussion entirely.

Sure. Equal application and trust must be paramount in my estimation. I'm not averse to digging into this if you wish to direct the topic in the direction.

a reply to: JinMI

Free speech is like a the fruit Ackee. When ripe and prepared correctly, it has a creamy buttery, mild taste. If not truly matured and properly prepared, it will make you sick and possibly cause death.

Free speech does not mean you can say the vilest thing that you can think of and not expect for it to come without a cost.

a reply to: Maxmars

Being primarily U.S. membership audience was offset by the blessed inclusion of international members.

You have that the wrong way round.

ATS was created in The U.K. and then had the inclussion of international members, including ones from The U.S.

a reply to: Maxmars

Respectfully, dozens of "f*** you" topics have been typed and uploaded here. Most recently during the so called red wave period when the hot button flavor of the month was abortion. But before that, oh boy. Very targeted and scathing monologues on the status and fate of our nation. From both sides, to be fair. Plenty reciprocating and escalating.

But to focus on your presumptive common goal, understanding. Years ago I would agree, but no longer. Everyone here knows what they think, and they're here to push that principle, platform, brand or ideology. Venture into the current events, political madness, posse comitatus or the notorious mud pit, pick any topic at random and you will almost certainly see the same suspects repeating the same talking points and flinging the same aspersions like it's a pillow fight amongst rowdy teens, but there's bricks in the pillow and "your mom" written crudely in sharpie. I haven't seen actual understanding and sympathy and genuine neighborly goodwill outside of RIP threads in the last year, going back to 2020ish.

My 2 cents.

As if to prove my case, this just happened.

Another one of those "f*** you" topics I mentioned earlier

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: JinMI

Free speech is like a the fruit Ackee. When ripe and prepared correctly, it has a creamy buttery, mild taste. If not truly matured and properly prepared, it will make you sick and possibly cause death.

Free speech does not mean you can say the vilest thing that you can think of and not expect for it to come without a cost.

Correct, freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

So, what are the consequences? Are they applied equally to the best of abilities? Are the consequences free from bias?

originally posted by: Moon68

originally posted by: RonnieJersey
After being on another site, I have to say that Above Top Secret is a real gem -
People here actually do discuss subjects without getting upset. And I learn something interesting every time I come here, after all different parts of the country and world are having varied experiences.
I appreciate that!

Oh, some get upset, usually from having the same discussions 100 different times. Sometimes it's like beating your head against the wall but, you can't take it personally or it'll eat away at you.

And every now and then, there'll be a spark of awakening that makes all the arguing worth it.

" Tommy Lee Jones is in Reality 97 Years Old Today , but Hollywood has Given his Youth Back To him in Films Through Advanced Alien " Technology "........Discuss................*)

I had a mod suggest that I grow a thicker skin...Julie I think it was. I did and it was fun for awhile, but now it's just easier to log out and not participate in threads that are just star echo chambers.

originally posted by: olaru12
I had a mod suggest that I grow a thicker skin...Julie I think it was. I did and it was fun for awhile, but now it's just easier to log out and not participate in threads that are just star echo chambers.

I keep thinking that's probably my smartest move, but immediately tell myself, not yet. I wonder why I do that.

a reply to: olaru12

What was that Saying We All knew as Kids ?


" Sticks and Stones May Break My Bones But Words Can Never Hurt Me "

Take that to Heart , I Still do Sir .........*)

originally posted by: olaru12
I had a mod suggest that I grow a thicker skin...Julie I think it was. I did and it was fun for awhile, but now it's just easier to log out and not participate in threads that are just star echo chambers.

I have to laugh.

I got that same response, not sure from which mod. It was a long while back. I don’t think my skin ever got that much thicker, but I too opted for the log out button, finding it be a much better and easier way to deal with it.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: JinMI

Free speech is like a the fruit Ackee. When ripe and prepared correctly, it has a creamy buttery, mild taste. If not truly matured and properly prepared, it will make you sick and possibly cause death.

Free speech does not mean you can say the vilest thing that you can think of and not expect for it to come without a cost.

I understand. And sometimes I wonder if people think about the difference between freedom and liberty. I think they are different things. I can't imagine anything in the context of speech that comes without consequence. But some people think that freedom is only about someone being able to stop you from speaking... it's almost always about the feedback... almost.

originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: Maxmars

Being primarily U.S. membership audience was offset by the blessed inclusion of international members.

You have that the wrong way round.

ATS was created in The U.K. and then had the inclussion of international members, including ones from The U.S.

Thank you.

I stand most literally corrected if you inferred that I was speaking about the creation of ATS.

While I really wasn't intending that to be the take away message, it bears noting that the ATS enterprise was initially established in the U.K.

However it cannot be said that the membership is mostly international from the perspective of US participation. Thankfully, the mix has a positive positive effect. And hopefully, our collective geographical dispersion is irrelevant, in the context of our discussions generally (with logical exceptions.)