The Jesus of the Bible was a communist. If you aren't a communist, then you are anti-Christ.

With my psychic powers, nothing can stop the evacuation, nothing can stop my psychic vacuum.

a reply to: sapien82

Many religious scholars have documented the life of jesus none have come to the same conclusion as you. Jesus wasnt a communist...

I applaud the perfect self-assurance of perfect ignorance. Bravo!

First, in a general way, Wikipedia:

Christian communism is a theological view that the teachings of Jesus compel Christians to support religious communism. Although there is no universal agreement on the exact dates when communistic ideas and practices in Christianity began, many Christian communists argue that evidence from the Bible suggests that the first Christians, including the Apostles in the New Testament, established their own small communist society in the years following Jesus' death and resurrection. Many advocates of Christian communism and other communists, including Karl Kautsky, argue that it was taught by Jesus and practised by the apostles themselves. This is generally confirmed by historians.

Next, let us hear from a Roman-era (c. 165AD) opponent of the early Christians:

Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they are all brothers of one another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping that crucified Sophist himself and living under his laws. Therefore they despise all things indiscriminately and consider them common property, receiving such doctrines traditionally without any definite evidence.’
–- Lucian, The Passing of Peregrinus, 13

Lucian's comments are borne out by Acts Ch. 4, which has already been discussed in this thread, as well as Acts Ch. 6, where seven Greek-speaking men are chosen to oversee the distribution of food to widowed Greek women among the early Christian community:

And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because [Greek] widows were neglected in the daily ministration. Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business... And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch.

Next, communism imposed upon Christian monks by St Benedict, c.550AD.

Without an order from the abbot, no one may presume to give, receive or retain anything as his own, nothing at all –- not a book, writing tablets or a stylus –- in short, not a single item… All things should be the common possession of all, as it is written, so that no one presumes to call anything his own.

-- The Rule of St Benedict

Christian communism in the late Middle Ages, from the twelfth century onward:

In addition, there appeared in the Middle ages, especially from the 12th century on, non-clerical and even anti-clerical popular movements, such as the Waldensians, Beguines, Cathars, Lollards, Hussites, etc. All these groups, whether inside or outside the Church, were aiming for a humble, devout life in the footsteps of Jesus and the Apostles, renouncing either private property, or, as in the case of the more radical Franciscans, any property whatsoever.

True Christian perfection, it was widely believed, was achieved through humility, abstinence and community of possessions. The Franciscans held a more extreme view, rejecting even the community of possessions. They assumed that neither in the Garden of Eden, nor in the apostolic community of Jesus there had existed anything other than the mere use of those goods which we need to stay alive, to which everybody is entitled, by natural right. Replacing property with poverty, they defined the latter as use without ownership. Source

Will this do? I could go on citing examples throughout history (they multiply in number as we approach nearer and nearer to the present day), but I suspect it would be a waste of time. Most of you will not change your views: anti-communism is as much a religion with you as the Christianity you profess. Victims of Cold War propaganda that your society has not yet outgrown, you think Marx was the Devil and all Communists are Stalinists or Maoists. I grow weary of such prattle.

This will be, I think, my last post on the thread. I may reply in brief to a few others that have addressed me directly.

Well, this is now 27 pages of false equivalence fallacy and people trying in vain to point that out.

I can make false equivocation too.

Cyrus The Great is a great historical leader. He is credited with many "ahead of his time" things. One of the first truly benevolent rulers. But.. He was a woke liberal. The first woke liberal to run a society.

He freed the slaves, declared that all people had the right to choose their own religion, and established racial equality. These and other decrees were recorded on a baked-clay cylinder in the Akkadian language with cuneiform script.

Based on what's known he shared ideals of racial equality, secular society, and went to ACLU lengths to make sure formerly discriminated against groups were given a safe space.

And if there were "Cyriots" today, and a religion was based on Cyrus The Great, all its adherents would be woke liberals as well.

a reply to: andy06shake

Anyhoo possibly best to return to the actual topic of the thread and leave your sexual proclivities aside for the moment, or forever, we could do that too.

Well said, Andy, and no less than any obnoxious heckler at the back of the room deserves.

a reply to: ketsuko

No it was to you and your talk about determinism and the rest. We keep falling into the trap of time because we live in time. God does not. The Bible even says as much.

Oh, I see. Well, if that explanation works for you, embrace it by all means. My own interest is in history, not theology, so I don't need to perform these mental gymnastics. Religion to me is just another field of human activity.

originally posted by: Astyanax

Will this do? I could go on citing examples throughout history (they multiply in number as we approach nearer and nearer to the present day), but I suspect it would be a waste of time. Most of you will not change your views: anti-communism is as much a religion with you as the Christianity you profess. Victims of Cold War propaganda that your society has not yet outgrown, you think Marx was the Devil and all Communists are Stalinists or Maoists. I grow weary of such prattle.

This will be, I think, my last post on the thread. I may reply in brief to a few others that have addressed me directly.

Communism does not see the individual; it is a hive event in its best form. If I force you to do something or be some way that has nothing to do with the individual choice becoming one with God. With Jesus it is always the individual choice for their salvation. Doesn't even make sense any other way.

How old are you? Have you been to Russia under USSR rule? If communism has failed at every attempt on a MASSIVE scale... MASSIVE scale like on the level of 100s of millions killed by it, many more 100s of millions lives ruined then what the hell are you looking for?

Lets not even call it communism, it still has nothing to do with the induvial choice to be one with God, and if anyone thinks Jesus was looking for a social construct even remotely related to communism has no clue to what his words were.

originally posted by: Astyanax

Oh, I see. Well, if that explanation works for you, embrace it by all means. My own interest is in history, not theology, so I don't need to perform these mental gymnastics. Religion to me is just another field of human activity.

So your answer is that humans have been extremely imperfect as history shows. Great! you win! That is still not what Jesus was about in he understood the imperfection of man and died for it. The funny part is that one doesn't need to do crap but truly believe Jesus is their savior and they are saved, see how easy that is. No need to give everything away, no need to do some crazy good events to prove one's faith, just to believe.

You see this is what the unbeliever like the OP just do not understand. They want to pick apart every verse and try to put it into some logic loop and none of that matters in the end.

The OP just cannot understand that the passage of Jesus below means everyone has the same price to get into heaven no matter how good or great one is the price is just to believe Jesus is their savior and they are in. So, something like giving everything you own away to the poor or having some perfect communism system means nothing in the end if one doesn't believe Jesus is their savior.

Many people who are first now will be last in the future. And many who are last now will be first in the future."

a reply to: Xtrozero

Communism does not see the individual

I suspect that your concept of communism is determined by the miserable history of the Soviet Union and a lifetime of exposure to American propaganda. Have you read Capital? How about The Communist Manifesto? Anything else by Marx or Engels? How about Lenin or Trotsky? How about George Bernard Shaw? Harold Laski? Christopher Hitchens?

How old are you?

As old as you, in all probability, or older. I never visited the Soviet Union but I lived under a Socialist regime for many years. Long enough for me to develop a thorough aversion to it. And long enough to know that you, my friend, are profoundly wrong about the nature of communism.

a reply to: Xtrozero

The issue is not money but exponential growth with limited ressources, at one point this system will alway resort to the consumer as the only ressource left to profit off and it will suck you dry until you can't even fight back.

happy times, we're all enjoying it don't we?

originally posted by: Astyanax
How about The Communist Manifesto? Anything by Marx or Engels? How about Lenin or Trotsky? How about George Bernard Shaw? Harold Laski? Christopher Hitchens?

You see this is the magic of communism on paper where people are drawn to in the very last step is that those in power step down and everyone is equal. This is an impossible scenario once humans are added to the mix. It is something that just cannot happen due to a million years of evolution.

As old as you, in all probability, or older. I never visited the Soviet Union but I lived under a Socialist regime for many years. Long enough for me to develop a thorough aversion to it. And long enough to know that you, my friend, are profoundly wrong about the nature of communism.

Explain how it could come about when everyone will always seek a better life. Someone needs to clean the toilets and if a person can put themselves in a situation where they never do so again will do it, as a simple example of how humans work. It's an unreachable utopia.

a reply to: Xtrozero

That is still not what Jesus was about in he understood the imperfection of man and died for it. The funny part is that one doesn't need to do crap but truly believe Jesus is their savior and they are saved...

I have also lived long enough to obtain a thorough and detailed understanding of Christian doctrine. You don't have to explain salvation by Grace to me. I am weary, as I said, of prattle. Say something original, or hold your peace.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Explain how it could come about when everyone will always seek a better life.

Why should I explain? I am not defending communism, I am supplying proof of the fact that early Christians were communists.

And that, my friend, is the end of our conversation.

originally posted by: Terpene

The issue is not money but exponential growth with limited ressources, at one point this system will alway resort to the consumer as the only ressource left to profit off and it will suck you dry until you can't even fight back.

happy times, we're all enjoying it don't we?

As a consumer I'm living a very nice life that 99.9% of every human before me could never even come close to achieving, so I would say not so bad. There are always extremes in all directions that isn't good. A blend of it all is best, not too much Government, not too much capitalism etc., like making a cake.

How do you fight back when the Government controls everything and the power over your whole existence is some low-level bureaucrat that hates their job, or worst takes advantage of those in their control for "favors" ...no thanks.

originally posted by: Astyanax
I am supplying proof of the fact that early Christians were communists.

And that, my friend, is the end of our conversation.

Well to end it... You are actually not as I explained. You do not like my explanations and that is fine, but that doesn't mean you are then correct.

originally posted by: Astyanax

I have also lived long enough to obtain a thorough and detailed understanding of Christian doctrine. You don't have to explain salvation by Grace to me. I am weary, as I said, of prattle. Say something original, or hold your peace.

That is it... sorry it's not spicey or original. It's the truth to the believer and some boring statement to the unbeliever. This is why it is not a good conversation to debate.

You really need to be more like me my friend. I can understand the points of religion without trying to reinvent it or ripe it apert verse by verse.

a reply to: Xtrozero

yes, the current form of government has already fallen pry to the market, once meant to protect their citizens from harmful business is now protecting the profit of enterprises, you are at best an asset at worst a liability...

it was great for us, but we that profited off are still a minority, so I don't really see the greatness in it even if I'm on the wining side.
my compassion tells me I'm not really winning anything, when there is a majority barely scraping the barrel, except maybe winning an award in looking the other way.

I don't think we earn our standard of living, it implies those dying of hunger deserve theirs as well. the world is not a separate place, we're all in it together, and real compassion doesn't end at borders.

This all boils down to the state of the world we are living each of us experiences individualy with what is wrong and what is right in it and the rulers and masters people follow in it.

Actually, Jesus multiplied the loaves and fishes. That is not communism, but precipitation from the Universal Supply. Totally different thing.
However, Jesus understood the corrosive nature of greed. It was in the best interests of the people to learn the flow of giving and receiving.
This is the principle of the tithe.

a reply to: ltrz2025

The Golden Rule: "Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you" .... doesn't seem very communist to me.

Instead, it seems to me that the Jesus of the Bible was actually a libertarian. Oh well, whatever. Does it really matter what his political views may have been?

The gift of the Golden Rule is really all you need from Christianity, and it works too, unless you are masochistic or something else generally pathological.

a reply to: Fowlerstoad

Does it really matter what his political views may have been?

Seems it does to many people.

I'm not sure he'd be pigeonholed and stereotyped as a Communist judging by the current definition but judging on the same current labels I also very much doubt he could be described a fully fledged free market capitalist.

It matters little to an Agnostic like myself but if I was to accept his teachings as described in The New Testament I'd suggest he'd have very little time for most modern day political ideologies and certainly none for wealthy elitists who do very little, or nothing, with their wealth other than try to accrue even more wealth and power to the detriment of ordinary, everyday people.