One year in, no end it sight.

I had a look at China's peace plan last night, I'm struggling to find what's wrong with it. Plans are subject to change but the contents are agreeable by all sides.

It's critical of all sides without pointing actual blame, the West doesn't want to hear that it's bullies and Russia doesn't want to hear that it's nuts with the threats and crap it comes up with.

Without actual dialogue all we're going to get is cloak & dagger guessing games, I think it's possible for all sides to be above that. The people who matter say maybe and that's a start right?

a reply to: RAY1990

It's just extremely vague. It talks about ideals but nothing concrete.

originally posted by: Cutepants
a reply to: RAY1990

It's just extremely vague. It talks about ideals but nothing concrete.

Yes it seem to be the diplomatic equivalent of singing 'Imagine'

a reply to: RAY1990

I haven't had chance to have a good look at the plan but any proposal is better than nothing.
And this seems to be getting a bit more traction than previous feeble attempts to broker peace.

A ceasefire and an end to the killing would be a good starting point, for everyone.

a reply to: RAY1990

Without actual dialogue all we're going to get is cloak & dagger guessing games, I think it's possible for all sides to be above that. The people who matter say maybe and that's a start right?

LOL! No one involved is "above that". This whole mess will continue to be a guessing game because "dialogue" and "peace talks" will only be a show to make it look like they're making an effort, when they are not. It comes with the territory. As soon as fake cease fires and peace talks are close to a fake negotiation, someone will throw something in the mix to derail it and blame it on someone else. Rinse. Repeat.

a reply to: Cutepants

A starting point that both parties said "maybe" to, it needs to be vague.

I saw no potential for dialogue with the stances on display, this is the closest we've got. The West dreams of locking Russians up and punishing them, propaganda says they aim to destroy Russia. Reality is the West sent mostly out of date stuff and qausi-sanctioned sections of the Russian economy.

Russia? Cuckoo, it's all I can say. They're still willing to say maybe to talks though and it's not like the peace plan doesn't hold Russia in a critical light, yet it's still a maybe.

a reply to: Cutepants

Given the potentials of the near future I'd say it might be wise to take a seat and sing. Are we not seeing international discord in action worldwide?

a reply to: Deetermined

Let's say governments are as evil as suspected, optics then?

Sure doesn't look good for the West to scoff at being civilised. That's like giving ammunition to nutters and reasoning to the ones who aren't quite nuts in our collective opinion.

a reply to: Freeborn

Quite a few minds are made up right?

I see a potential for changing minds, the important people say maybe so this draft must be ticking the right boxes.

a reply to: RAY1990

Let's say governments are as evil as suspected, optics then?

Sure doesn't look good for the West to scoff at being civilised. That's like giving ammunition to nutters and reasoning to the ones who aren't quite nuts in our collective opinion.

Yes, I believe it's all for optics. It doesn't look good for any of them to come off as unreasonable or uncivilized, but the ship of reason has sailed and I don't think it's ever coming back for any of them.

Now it's just a battle of wills and power to see who's left standing. That's a powerful drug that eliminates all reason, so God only knows how this will ultimately end.

a reply to: JinMI

What it looks like to me is that China is trying to mediate peace which would allow Putin to get out of Ukraine as well as saving face, but the West wants to grind him into the ground as a message to would be copycats.

Arrogance DeLuxe.
Why hasn't NATO bombed this mess? They could stop the BS in 48 hours.
NATO bombed Libya a few years back didn't they?

Zelensky: America Will ‘Lose NATO’ and Global Leadership Role if it Stops Funding War in Ukraine🤡

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky declared that if America pulls military support from his country, the United States will “lose NATO” and its global leadership position.

a reply to: xuenchen

NATO is high on crack, composing epics for cheap giggles. That's why.

twitter.com...

originally posted by: Insurrectile
a reply to: xuenchen

NATO is high on crack, composing epics for cheap giggles. That's why.

twitter.com...

😁😁😁

originally posted by: MykeNukem

originally posted by: nancyliedersdeaddog
a reply to: JinMI

Where did I accuse you of being pro Russia? My argument isn't your view on Russia vs Ukraine it's that you are right to have an issue with people who scream you are a what ever phobe against people they disagree with while at the same time you agree with MykeNukem who's guilty of that very same behavior in your own thread.

Hey, hey, hey...

I'll accept the blame for my own words, thanks.

That was me, no one else.

The point of my comment is that we've beaten the Ukraine/Russia horse into a pulp, and I have no interest in arguing about the issue, anymore.

My comment had nothing to do with propaganda, but with viewpoints.

Sorry for getting my Troglodyte juice on your thread, Jin...

I'm not blaming him for what you said.

a reply to: RAY1990

I saw no potential for dialogue with the stances on display, this is the closest we've got.

But I don't see potential for dialogue in the China peace plan either. Does it even mention the children abducted by Russia, btw? Bringing them to safety seems important for a diplomatic solution. Otherwise we'll have to see how the war develops until someone starts winning.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: Timber13

But sadly by doing this, we've only sealed our status as the world's bully.

By "we" I guess you mean America when in reality it isn't America who started the war nor is it America who are the only country standing up to the aggressor , the UK has been at the forefront of the European response.

Ukraine is the aggressor. Do you even recall that Ukraine has been making war on its eastern citizens since 2014? Russia's patience ran out.

That is what Russian propaganda says.

No this is what somebody who has no idea of the conflict says

a reply to: Cutepants

Ok. How do you see abducted Ukrainians going home?

Because the stances on display say there'll be no dialogue until Putin is dead or Russia capitulates. Maybe the theorists are right? Or maybe our leaders are dumb. Because neither is happening with western efforts.

Otherwise we'll have to see how the war develops until someone starts winning.

If we send modern weapons and equipment I suspect things will escalate drastically. There's a reason everything has limited range, limited stock or was outdated by the 90s.

The world won't be agreeing on Russia and I doubt they'll do anything to change minds.

a reply to: RAY1990

I don't know what you're saying in the first part of your post. My point was that if those Ukrainians are returned, then maybe Ukraine could give some territory to Russian in exchange. And I was criticizing the Chinese plan for ignoring this.

What do you mean how do I see them going home? And what theorists are you talking about?

If we send modern weapons and equipment I suspect things will escalate drastically. There's a reason everything has limited range, limited stock or was outdated by the 90s.

You're saying that Russia would make their decision to escalate based on the type of gear we send. That's not realistic, I don't see any evidence for that. We've been sending them more and more advanced and/or offensive weapons: first we escalated to the most advanced artillery in the world, then HIMARS, the JDAM and now MBT's. But Russia has not escalated in return, have they? On the contrary.

a reply to: Cutepants

I don't know what you're saying in the first part of your post. My point was that if those Ukrainians are returned, then maybe Ukraine could give some territory to Russian in exchange. And I was criticizing the Chinese plan for ignoring this.

It would be a good start to go back to something like the Minsk agreement, you've gotta give em that. At some point the Ukraine will have to deal with the federal demands of fair representation, not unlike every other democracy. And there's a lot of makebelief at play when it comes to the state of the Ukrainian civil society in general, which might explain why big chunks of this proposal tend to fall on deaf ears.

a reply to: Insurrectile

It could work in the future once Russia has been weakened enough or the West has decided to stop supporting Ukraine. But currently I don't see why a new Minsk agreement would be any better than the last.

originally posted by: quintessentone
What it looks like to me is that China is trying to mediate peace which would allow Putin to get out of Ukraine as well as saving face, but the West wants to grind him into the ground as a message to would be copycats.

The only way for Putin to "save face" is to grow some balls and admit what he did was wrong. Withdraw from all parts of Ukraine and pay reparations for the destruction and misery he has caused. Anything less than Ukrainian sovereignty being fully restored will be rewarding a bully.

The Chinese "plan" is just a list of twelve bland statements, that do nothing except state the obvious.