Trucking World Endorses Toyota’s Hydrogen-Powered Fuel Cells

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"Hydrogen is a way to achieve zero emissions with very few compromises," said Andy McGarvey, senior manager for Toyota Logistics Services, and one of the real-world customers who used the fuel-cell big rigs. "This project really showed that hydrogen is going to be part of the solution."

Thoughts on this? I know they've been working on these for a while, and from what I understand, the manufacturing process is significantly "greener" than the EV alternatives. Whereas you may end up with a 15-minute fast charge, you can refuel a cell in about 3 minutes or so, which is closest to what we have now.

I know they've tried to kill this off a few times now for some silly reason, which makes no sense at all to me, aside from pure greed and trying to ruin the environment even further. Any bets on if this is going to disappear? Because as it stands, trucking is enormous, and if they adopt this, you can look forward to commuter vehicles embracing it as well. It's like Porn adopting the VHS and it becoming the standard; it could be exciting and could be a flash in the pan.

I fail to see how these would be "greener" to build, or fuel.
The tanks will be more expensive, the engines will be more complex... The trucks will likely be heavier to carry the same load capacity of fuel, and will need to have large high pressure tanks on board requiring frequent inspection.

a reply to: Hypntick

They have been shelved due to the tendency to be explosive. I worked at a plant the built buses and we had a prototype being R&D there. The extra safety procedures were pretty crazy. Granted it was fifteen years ago, how ever after some of the issues I've seen about EV's I find it concerning. Car fires with an EV is a huge mess, water is not the solution. So what happens with a hydrogen cell is in a fire? Tunnel vision for zero emissions! Not like there could be unforeseen consequences.

a reply to: Hypntick
Hydrogen is very suitable for trucks. The fuel cell has some lag to it and that's not a big problem with trucks. Watch Hyundai, very promising technology too. Last I heard they are very close to figuring the wall corrosion problem inside the single cells.

Any bets on if this is going to disappear?

Nope, won't disappear but also not available for personal transport. The big manufacturers in Europe for example already have spoken about that and decided not to pursue the technology for personal transportation.

a reply to: hangedman13

Plus the hydrogen fuel itself...
Only way I know how to make it is by breaking water apart - it's fun and easy but uses a lot of electricity. Far more than you can get back burning it off and converting back into water

a reply to: lordcomac

The current platforms do not use as many batteries, which is a net positive due to the waste products of spent batteries.

The amount of energy stored onboard is determined by the size of the hydrogen fuel tank. This is different from an all-electric vehicle, where the amount of power and energy available are both closely related to the battery's size.

Eventually, you end up with smaller and smaller batteries and then an engine that would run off of the fuel itself.

The most common methods today are natural gas reforming (a thermal process), and electrolysis. Other methods include solar-driven and biological processes.

Moving more toward an electrolysis-based method would also remove much of the traditional natural gas reforming. Obviously not ready for primetime just yet, but I would prefer this over a conventional EV that takes forever to charge and, quite frankly, has way too many waste byproducts in manufacturing and disposal.

a reply to: TDDAgain

I did not know about the European stance; then again, they kind of cut their own nose off with electrical generating capabilities, so I take what they do with a grain of salt. I'm less looking for green purposes and more looking toward other technologies that minimize or limit the EV stranglehold we find ourselves in currently.

a reply to: lordcomac
That's true but here is the rub:

Renewable energy is plenty and even shutdown at times because of grid stability and greed. If we would use the overcapacity in production for hydrogen electrolysis instead of shutting them down, a lot could be achieved.

So instead of just regulating renewables away during times when the grid is oversaturated with energy, we could just start doing electrolysis. This way we actually could buffer load swings without expensive gas power plants jumping in, saving a lot of gas while we also gain hydrogen, that could also be burned in gas powered plants.

But for that, politics would actually want to have a solution. They don't, because the plan is to do away with personal vehicles. And that's official black and white on paper, known for at least 15 years. They don't want a solution like that, so instead the focus is on battery powered EV and currently inefficient and failure prone fuel cells.

eFuels are something on the horizon too, but currently not viable.

a reply to: Hypntick

See my post above

a reply to: Hypntick

Hydrogen at scale would be ideal imo, if executed properly.

Essentially it’s fuel cells that convert the hydrogen to electric for the motors. Those motors are superior for instant power delivery and management, and can allow for more safety features since the power can be controlled at any wheel where a motor is present.

It’s so green because the emissions are water, and the hydrogen can be produced on site eliminating the need to overhaul the electric infrastructure. You can produce the hydrogen at times when energy is going to the ground because demand is lower than supply making sure there’s no wasted electricity.

It also makes refuel time and range a lot more manageable than standard EV since you’re not charging but filling. And onboard batteries are far less since you’re storing the energy as a different source.

The big hurdle is a membrane to retain the hydrogen as many substances are too porous. This may change at anytime though.

a reply to: hangedman13

Hydrogen is incredibly light. As long as there are fail safes and a vent on the top, the whole load can be evacuated very quickly.

Any kind of energy harnessing comes with risk though.

a reply to: lordcomac

It’s a fuel cell in most ambitions I’ve seen, not an engine (though hydrogen engines do exist)

So it’s a conversion to electricity on board.

As far as efficiency in deriving the material, there could be a way to make it comparable to todays petrol world. Many people’s petrol has oil traveling from the source hundreds or thousands of miles to be refined, then hundreds or thousands more to the place to be consumed. While it serves our purpose, it’s not necessarily ideal. It also puts a lot of reliance on countries you don’t want to be reliant on for your countries energy wellbeing.

a reply to: CriticalStinker
The membrane is available though, just not for civil purposes. There's another hurdle, namely walls that separate the single cells inside the fuel cell assembly.

These walls are prone to failure currently because of chemical processes going on inside. If the wall fails, the subcell is toast and also influencing the rest of the cell pack.

a reply to: TDDAgain

If anyone has learned from recent events though, it’s that we should be exploring any and every possible avenue for different ways to drive our economies without relying on others.

Even better if private sector can do so in an efficient manner to be cost competitive and turn a profit.

I’m not anti fossil fuel, but energy independence would be nice and oil isn’t unlimited.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

Agreed. That's why I emphasize on EV technology being important to get the electrification mastered until we get a suitable power source that is portable and lightweight.

The H² diffusion problem through materials could be solved by a special coating used in atomic bombs. Inside the H² version of these, there's a coating that can be used to prevent H² diffusion. But the bad guy's can't have it, so it's a secret and why it can not be utilized private. If there is a private company inventing it, the government steps in because of the above reason.

That's also why we only have one H² storage vessel worldwide and that's just experimental. H² would be a lot better to produce locally similar to what you wrote. Decentralize it to renewables that often get shut down in times of overproduction. You worded it a bit different ("instead sending it to the ground") but we're entertain the same principle.

Also, H² is one of the ingredients needed to produce e-fuel.

Hydrogen powered anything seems pretty cool to me.

I for one welcome the nuclear trucks of the future.

a reply to: TDDAgain

The sending it to the ground phrase is because with a lot of new renewable energy, you can’t necessarily stop production.

If it’s wind, solar, or hydroelectric and people aren’t consuming it, the excess is just sent to the ground. Depending on how different countries grids are set up, they may be doing that with traditional power supplies too, but I doubt that’s as much of the case.

Even back in the day of the soviets they had a pretty quick awareness of the supply and demand of the grid. They had a show where people would watch and vote real time by turning on their lights.

"The trucking industry"

I like hydrogen, but you are quoting Toyota, in a Toyota project, not the trucking industry.
Making a hydrogen truck is one thing, building the infrastructure to support is another thing.
Everyone with diesel pumps will need new setup added and the room for it.
Toyoto is Chinese owned just like Tesla.
It seems like they want to own/control our fuel/energy market too.
...our means of transportation
no thanks

a reply to: CriticalStinker

I know, remember I worked in grid management for a while and we did exactly that. I just quoted you with the "" not to mock but to point out we are talking about the same thing.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Send me 2000 to Detroit in January. Lets put some water on the road or is that water a hazardous chemical like it used to be when we tried this 30 years ago so you can't just dump it out,