Work Ethic

originally posted by: olaru12

That's the very reason you see Starbucks employees unionizing.

Collective bargaining works!

Union proud, Union Strong

I'm not a fan of Unions... There is a local chain called Burgerville with 40 locations. They have the highest pay of any fast foods and wear that like a badge of honor with their lowest pay of close to 15 per hour. A burger/fries and drink is not cheep either 13 to 17 dollars and if you add a dessert that is another 4, but the food is good.

Well last year the employees still unionized, so what does that get anyone?

Well last year the employees still unionized, so what does that get anyone?

Perhaps they can get a health plan and other benefits that the union local provides that the employers don't.


That's the main reason I'm in SAG, IATSE and soon DGA I hope, for the health plan and retirement package. The pay and residuals aren't anything to sneeze at either but we would be working for peanuts if the production companies had their way.

Strength in numbers....Union proud, Union Strong. I think my union dues are well spent. We offer training programs for young folks wanting to break into the biz.


I have some anecdotal horror stories as well, about employer abuse if you want to hear them.

originally posted by: olaru12

Well last year the employees still unionized, so what does that get anyone?

Perhaps they can get a health plan and other benefits that the union local provides that the employers don't.


That's the main reason I'm in SAG, IATSE and soon DGA I hope, for the health plan and retirement package. The pay and residuals aren't anything to sneeze at either but we would be working for peanuts if the production companies had their way.

Strength in numbers....Union proud, Union Strong. I think my union dues are well spent. We offer training programs for young folks wanting to break into the biz.


I have some anecdotal horror stories as well, about employer abuse if you want to hear them.

My company is not unionized since we offer more than what the union could provide. Maybe yours is good, not sure where it is, but many are just parasites wanting to draw money off the masses with little in return. If you do not like your job then get another one, is my thought process. Today, people tend to move a lot more than before so 5 years with a company is now a long time. Poor pay and bad working areas tend to work themselves out in people just do not work for you, or you have a high turnover that can be extremely expensive.

a reply to: Xtrozero


I can't speak for all union members but my union brothers and sisters have an astonishing work ethic. People will work hard when they want to protect their position chosen career and feel appreciated.

But when low pay and abused by the company...

Pretend to pay me and I'll pretend to work, until I can find an employer that appreciates my hard work and dedication.

I feel blessed to be able to turn down work from projects that treat skilled craftsmen like Sh!t, like the Disney corp; the arrogance of the above the line personnel is deplorable.
Sadly most in the labor force don't have that option.

originally posted by: olaru12

But when low pay and abused by the company...

So what is low pay? How does the job align with the pay? What do you pay someone mowing your lawn or cook you a burger? I have always asked, what is an actual living wage and no one can really answer that question for me.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: olaru12

But when low pay and abused by the company...

So what is low pay? How does the job align with the pay? What do you pay someone mowing your lawn or cook you a burger? I have always asked, what is an actual living wage and no one can really answer that question for me.

Good question! I guess that needs to be discussed by the prospective employee and HR.

I do know that in entry level, unskilled workers/people are usually desperate just to get anykind of job.
HR knows this and sometimes use it to their advantage.

Skilled people usually know what the market will bare and know how to negotiate. We have Union attorneys to take care of that for the members before the contracts are signed.

a reply to: Xtrozero

originally posted by: olaru12

Well last year the employees still unionized, so what does that get anyone?

Perhaps they can get a health plan and other benefits that the union local provides that the employers don't.

As a union member this has been incredibly helpful. I've worked union most of my life, having access to a Employee & Family Assistance Program has worked wonders for my mental health. EFAP's offer access to a wide variety of tools to manage and better yourself, free, & often in a convenient fashion.

My family life has been through turbulent times, and I have a condition. It's been priceless being able to call and get emotional support over the telephone 24/7. I typically take advantage of one offs' to get feedback on challenges once I notice my anxiety levels are calling my attention.

Counselling and assistance in an entire range of life's challenges are available over the longer term, or referrals if someone would like to get help in person. I work lots, so leveraging the insights from someone who doesn't know me as personally has been a balancing influence for the better.

Sometimes someone wants to get in touch with a legal professional, or needs help managing life events. I love being able to pick up the phone and move forward in convenient fashion for free. I used to think of it as the ability to lean on others for help, but now realize that it can be a great tool for personal development. I can talk freely, without be concerned with burdening others.

The wonderful staff and professionals I've talked to though my EFAP have give me back the time I would spend stressing out. Now, I am able to practice better focus while enjoying my family, and beloved brothers and sisters at work. I can look forward to seeing them everyday.

I get the impression that non union work places are less likely to offer these services. Reflecting on that ,I wonder if they would have even been able to offer their services as well if someone finds themselves confined, for example.

a reply to: Xtrozero

In the Lower Mainland, Greater Vancouver area of B.C. local municipalites have considered $25 dollars an hour a living wage. I disagree, imo someone would be scraping by at that income level in these parts.

I would pay $25 for someone to mow my lawn in the backyard, about 400 square feet. Line cooks should be able to do better, a good one can be more productive than a couple of them, especially when someone considers food cost in their skill set. Strong communication skills and their ability to multitask efficiently are also money in the bank.

Unfortunately, wages haven't kept up with inflation. Someone could get by on their own using wits and a frugal lifestyle, supporting a family at that level would be impractical around here without additional support.

Apprentice in my line of work (building trades) start out under the living wage. The amount of opportunity available is incredible, they usually do well depending on how they go about applying themselves.

There's often lots of ot and raises come regularly as they work towards their Red Seal. Between that, and networking opportunities individuals can get some practical skills to support themselves without going into debt. Iirc, I started just shy of 13 dollars an hour back in 2005.

originally posted by: olaru12

Good question! I guess that needs to be discussed by the prospective employee and HR.

I do know that in entry level, unskilled workers/people are usually desperate just to get anykind of job.
HR knows this and sometimes use it to their advantage.

Skilled people usually know what the market will bare and know how to negotiate. We have Union attorneys to take care of that for the members before the contracts are signed.

For me there is basically zero negotiations when I hire and that is about 90k a year to start. I give the best I can compared to the rest of the team and its that simple. If you are unskilled then you don't have a whole lot to bring, but even today companies are willing to train at a good wage, so if a company is lowballing I think it just hurts them in the end. On the other end you or a Union can price themselves right out of a job too.

I personally do not believe in the term living wage since no one can figure out what that means other than a huge raise, but unions may help you and also may not, so I personally don't care for them, but if the job I wanted was union controlled it wouldn't stop me to going for it.

originally posted by: dffrntkndfnml

In the Lower Mainland, Greater Vancouver area of B.C. local municipalites have considered $25 dollars an hour a living wage. I disagree, imo someone would be scraping by at that income level in these parts.

So I guess people missed my point in what does the "living" part mean?

As example does that mean one person can buy a 4000 sq ft house with a Tesla in the garage? You need to define living to even come close to what the wage should be to support it.

You say 25 bucks an hour is scraping by and I would say what is the job and what does one need to pay for to suggest just scraping by? You might pay someone 25 to mow your lawn, but I bet you wouldn't pay 100 to 200 for someone to do it and just do it yourself. So I think we would both agree there are limits to the pay of any job of what it is worth to pay.

a reply to: Xtrozero

It did go over my head.

I had in mind a estimate of how much it would cost to cover the basics in living in cities around here. I'm picturing renting a 1 bedroom of some kind, food, transportation, phone service, and utilities. Briefly looking online I get the impression that this is supposed to be more accurate:

www.livingwageforfamilies.ca...

The living wage is the hourly amount that each of two working parents with two young children must earn to meet their basic expenses (including rent, child care, food and transportation) once government taxes, credits, deductions and subsidies are taken into account. It does not include debt repayment or savings for future plans.

Quantifying a living wage is going to be challenging, I agree with what you are saying about limits. The ranges will depend more specifically on market conditions. People will move into different lines of work or to cheaper places if possible. I find it expensive in the Lower Mainland...

none of this is new silent quitting is just another form of work to rule, but what it does show is we need to relearn the same lessons that this stiff splits workers into those want to advance their lives career and pay go and those who silent quit or work to rule that don't who then get labelled lazy and end up replaced.

what i find quite fascinating is that we need to relearn these lessons..

a reply to: Xtrozero

what are the business overheads for the $25 per hour and what does that mean to product costs, and what does that mean in a society addicted to all things cheap be it food, pay or loans..

and on those rates what does a supervisor or manager earn?

our addiction to cheap cripples us hence the shift from equality to equity as its the cheaper option for the corporates..

a reply to: nickyw

Xtrozero's organization pays better, and sounds like a quality employer.

I used $25/hour as an example having heard this from local municipalities. At the lower end of the hourly pay, hopefully it's enough to support oneself while they progress their skills and move upward. Imo, these positions are supposed to be stepping stones. (The bottom levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs)

none of this is new silent quitting is just another form of work to rule, but what it does show is we need to relearn the same lessons that this stiff splits workers into those want to advance their lives career and pay go and those who silent quit or work to rule that don't who then get labelled lazy and end up replaced.

what i find quite fascinating is that we need to relearn these lessons..

The quite quiting won't work in the building trades. There's definately a difference between those who look at their time on the job as work and those who see it as career.

Some get the impression the younger generations are getting soft, it could be more of a cultural phenomena. I don't know if it's relearning per se or more like reminders. The leaders from early on my career were hardcore and made a lasting impression. I remember their class and work ethic. That should be handed down.

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

Another thing to consider when we talk about unions, is that very often, they will be the ones driving hardest for minimum wage increases in any area, not because their members are really making it tough in that area or because they actually care about any non-union minimum wage employee. They probably know that raising minimum wages suddenly and drastically across the board actually harms minimum wage workers in many places, but most unions have it written into their contracts that their pay rates are figured based off prevailing minimum wage. So their workers who already make above minimum wage will suddenly make much more above minimum wage with such an increase.

So any hike like that does far more damage all across the board.

A lot of people cry that our minimum wage rates are still mostly below $8 out where I live, but in reality, almost nowhere actually pays that base rate except maybe to the most basic workers and those are mostly part-time and not actually trying to support family (high school or college; older workers supplementing retirement; moms earning a bit part-time) as a career, but by pushing for a Federal $15 minimum or local $15 minimum that happens suddenly, you are both suddenly doubling pay rates everywhere *and* suddenly and drastically increasing union employee pay rates as well. That has huge implications on any local economy.

a reply to: ketsuko

Those are some good points, in B.C. minimum wage is around $15 per hour. I tend to focus more on opportunities than the monetary aspect. Exploring the living wage tangent , was to share some thoughts on the Xtrozero's inquiries regarding what is an actual living wage. I gave it a try, but missed his point originally.

I usually consider the living wage separate from minimum wage, it's a voluntary pay level when thinking about companies who do that. I don't want to drift JAGStorm's thread too much, though it all ties in for me.

My hope is that someone has an opportunity to look after their necessities, and improve their lot as they earn a living. Mental health issues take an incredible toll on our society and limit what our future could look like. I jumped in considering my experiences with the EFAP and it's value.

I've worked in a variety of roles with different unions service, manufacturing, and construction. The service one was paying low relatively speaking, though the benefits were still good. Iirc, they all had EAP's or EFAP services that I hadn't taken advantage of. It's the first thing that came to mind when the question of what union membership could get someone.

Another thing is that there tends to many procedures and process available to address any issue that could come up on job. That has really helped given me a greater peace of mind while working.

Idk, perhaps EFAP's are more widespread than I realize? I didn't think about this much in my 20s.

Ideally, someone who aspires to genuine work ethic could have their physiological and safety levels of the hierarchy met.

The service job was low paying though the benefits provided access to the services I mentioned, giving someone a chance to grow on the upper levels towards exploring their full creative potential. I feel getting individuals down that road is an investment encouraging people to learn to stand more freely in whatever work they do or environment they find themselves in.

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

fair points and i guess its cultural element as growing up in the UK the work ethic is somewhat different though the younger gen actually think they are in the US.. the plus and negative points of US culture including work culture don't transpose over at all well in the same way they don't transpose over to mainland europe either.. in the end is more adopting the worst of all the others..

the irony of Brexit is the youth know more of the USA than they do mainland Europe..

a reply to: ketsuko

ironically liberal MP Winston Churchill was the first to push the UKs min wage, though a living wage was trialed in my area in the 1780s when wages got pegged to the price of bread.. like all such endeavours it lasted only until it was too costly to maintain, this things only work when times are good, and it soon reverted to under employment levels that then fed into the open revolt that happened 20 ish years later.. easy to see the cause and effect in these situations..

a reply to: nickyw

It's been tough staying in touch with people I've know from there. The time difference mostly.

I haven't noticed a contrast so much, my American cousins have been great. I described it as a cultural phenomena I don't see youth in my area exploring the trades as much as I'd like. My kids are down, though I haven't had much success introducing other young people to the trade. Steel fixing is challenging, it takes time to earn your salt.

I've noticed many foreign tradesmen and people moving from slower areas of our country out to the West Coast. Seeing young people from other parts who work to a high standard is encouraging. A part of me is concerned that more needs to be done to fill the need for talent.

Another aspect to the cultural side is the generations. I'm from the tail end of Generation X. Individuals entering the work force after I did, may have a different perspective on hard physical labour. That's ok too, but people owe to themselves to practice trying out a variety of work. Youth often underestimate where their talents may lie.

originally posted by: dffrntkndfnml

It did go over my head.

I had in mind a estimate of how much it would cost to cover the basics in living in cities around here. I'm picturing renting a 1 bedroom of some kind, food, transportation, phone service, and utilities. Briefly looking online I get the impression that this is supposed to be more accurate:

So let me ask you if privacy is a right or is it a privilege that a higher income allows? Would it be out of line to suggest a living wage is where 2 or more people live together to share the cost of living? I say this because most of the world works this way, but many around us think a living wage is the cost of one person having their own place and paying for everything as a single person. To me that is a luxury that most of the world does not have, so I see it as a privilege to have that level of privacy.

The living wage is the hourly amount that each of two working parents with two young children must earn to meet their basic expenses (including rent, child care, food and transportation) once government taxes, credits, deductions and subsidies are taken into account. It does not include debt repayment or savings for future plans.

Quantifying a living wage is going to be challenging, I agree with what you are saying about limits. The ranges will depend more specifically on market conditions. People will move into different lines of work or to cheaper places if possible. I find it expensive in the Lower Mainland...

Once again I see kids as a luxury and not some right that a job needs to build into the pay scale. If you can't afford kids then don't have them. This also goes down the path of whether I pay someone less because they do not have kids, but they do the same job as you do, not good... Also, lets say I have 8 kids and I'm s single parent, should I get 100 dollars an hour?

A wage is what one person does for an hour times xx hours per week with very little external conditions affecting it like having kids, a big car payment, or even 10 roommates, all of course being hot girls. That pay is mostly based on what the value of the job is to the company. High skill jobs are valuable and so pay more, low skill jobs are a dime a dozen and so pay less as they take very little time to train and accomplish. Many low skilled jobs are not really suppose to be careers, so if a person is 35 and still cooking fries then it is kind of on them as to why they are living a rather poor life and might end up having roommates their whole life.

When I start someone at 90k they are walking in with a good history of instructor skills and most likely a CFI as they will train people to fly million dollar drones. Is a good quality worker worth 90k, sure since the risk of crashing a million dollars kind of pushes me to get the best I can. Plus the cost of a class of students can be 200k to more, so if they had 10 classes a year that is 2 million gross they made for the company. A good Mac D will gross about 2.5 million per year, and that comes to about 125 to 150k for the owner who invested upwards of 2 million. They also have about 50 employees and at 15 per hour if that was minimum that is a gross pay just for salary of 30k per week or 1.56 million of that 2.5 million per year. Doesn't leave much for everything else does it. Even at 10 bucks that is still 1 million per year in wages.