Victims Of Communism Museum Opens - Illuminates Murderous Ideology

a reply to: ArMaP

Consider yourself fortunate.

The legacy of communism in countries where it operated is long lasting (generations) and trained people to take short cuts and generally distrust their governments.

In other words, you didn't miss anything good.

Cheers

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
a reply to: ArMaP

Consider yourself fortunate.

I do, both for Portugal not have turned into a hard line communist country but also for not having the US version of "democracy" forced upon us.

a reply to: infolurker

Yeah, there is nothing 'to do right'.

What Western students and professors don't grasp is that it isn't simply a "more fair" economic system. It is just arbitrary rule by, in general, people of low qualifications that want a system in which *they* can exercise power at their whim. The economic aspect is but another exercise in arbitrary decision-making (which is why communist economies are so often dysfunctional).

Even when the yoke of communism is lifted, the damage it does to societies lasts for generations. People who distrust authority, people who have learned to take short cuts and cheat, and people who only want to get rich quick no matter the cost. Trying to get entire societies to re-accept the ideals of law, order, fair play, and good citizenship after they've lived decades of arbitrary foolishness and incompetence is very difficult.

Cheers

originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
a reply to: ArMaP

Consider yourself fortunate.

I do, both for Portugal not have turned into a hard line communist country but also for not having the US version of "democracy" forced upon us.

You're welcome to want that for your society.

I just hope you recognize that in the context of the Cold War, there was much more at stake than simply the Portuguese deciding what kind of society they desired. In particular, your country's islands in the Atlantic Ocean are far too strategically located for the NATO powers to have simply ignored a communist revolution in Lisbon.

Cheers

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

People who distrust authority, people who have learned to take short cuts and cheat, and people who only want to get rich quick no matter the cost.

That's pretty much how I would describe the psychosocial state western society is slipping in.
Isn't the veracity of your statement implying, that either communism is the governing system in the west, or capitalism leads to the same result?

a reply to: Terpene

You're correct that much of the West is in a bad social state.

I am not, however, convinced that capitalism is the root cause of the decline.

Cheers

It's in Washington DC.
Never Happen

originally posted by: RickyD
a reply to: infolurker

Seems very much geared towards Russia...however I would argue that communism in asia has been way worse. Maybe I am missing its but I sure hope they feature exhibits that educate people about places like china and even vietnam...especially china though as they are probably the most totalitarian communist country still practicing that form of government.

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

The root cause is what they say about human behavior when in position of power...

As long as there is a hierarchy that does not grow organically, trough trust from the peer group, and vanishes alongside said trust, being in power of others without merit will corrupt.
What's holding me back of really pulling your pants in the remaining time of my presidency, from the time I'm not trusted anymore. But the laws are such, that i get to finish.

Unless people have spoken, which from time to time they do. Mainly when they see through the charade keeping them subservient to the hierarchy.

Communism is much faster in revealing that corruption, i totally agree there.
But I'm thinking the fallout of the coming capitalism revelation will be something to behold and overshadow this cute war propaganda museum. Unlike communism, capitalism hasn't failed YET. Looking at exponential growth, it's just a matter of time.

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
Even when the yoke of communism is lifted, the damage it does to societies lasts for generations.

That happens with all dictatorships, when people see what they were missing they have a tendency to want it all or to hide from the different new society.
I saw that happen in Portugal.

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
You're welcome to want that for your society.

I'm confused, what do you mean by "that"?

I just hope you recognize that in the context of the Cold War, there was much more at stake than simply the Portuguese deciding what kind of society they desired. In particular, your country's islands in the Atlantic Ocean are far too strategically located for the NATO powers to have simply ignored a communist revolution in Lisbon.

I know that, some people's interests are more important than some other people's interests, it has always been like that...

originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
You're welcome to want that for your society.

I'm confused, what do you mean by "that"?

A society free of both Soviet style communism and American style capitalism.

I just hope you recognize that in the context of the Cold War, there was much more at stake than simply the Portuguese deciding what kind of society they desired. In particular, your country's islands in the Atlantic Ocean are far too strategically located for the NATO powers to have simply ignored a communist revolution in Lisbon.

I know that, some people's interests are more important than some other people's interests, it has always been like that...

Yeah. Especially when some people's interests are the interests of hundreds of millions (wink). Portugal was one corner of a Europe that was caught up in a decades-long ideological confrontation that had the potential to trigger World War 3. Some priorities outweighed others. Personally, I draw no satisfaction in situations like the one you mentioned, but the stakes were very high and I do not fault the actions of any NATO power that didn't want Portugal to go communist.

More broadly, relations between countries are generally not sweetness and love. The Eurocrats in the EU interfere in the affairs of other countries regularly ... because for them, the highest priority is enforcing their vision of 'Europe'. I suppose how one perceives such behavior is a function of how one is affected by it.

Cheers

a reply to: infolurker

I see 2 things happening.

1. The Biden DOJ shuts it down as a "hate-museum".

2. Antifa torches it.

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
A society free of both Soviet style communism and American style capitalism.

I said 'the US version of "democracy"', I didn't say a thing American style about capitalism.

Especially when some people's interests are the interests of hundreds of millions (wink).

It's more what some people say are the interests of hundreds of millions, as the rulers never ask the people their opinion about those interests.

Portugal was one corner of a Europe that was caught up in a decades-long ideological confrontation that had the potential to trigger World War 3. Some priorities outweighed others. Personally, I draw no satisfaction in situations like the one you mentioned, but the stakes were very high and I do not fault the actions of any NATO power that didn't want Portugal to go communist.

I do. Whatever a country chooses for itself should be none of other countries' business.

One thing is a small part of the population/military making a coup to impose their ideas, a different thing is a parliament that was chosen by the people choosing a government.

communism can probably work at a micro level for a generation maybe 2 but will never work at a macro level.

Big reason for it is the same reason capitalism is becoming troublesome, larger the number of people involved the higher the chance that power hungry people will come into power and twist everything up.

eta: While I agree the evil should be shown it shouldnt be focused on 1 country.

Also with all its issues I would still take capitalism over communism/socialism. If I have a good idea and have the drive to bring them to fruition I can still raise my station in a capitalist society vs being born into your station and if its not in the right group you are stuck.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
communism can probably work at a micro level for a generation maybe 2 but will never work at a macro level.

It does work, some small villages in the North of Portugal used a kind of communism for a long time.
As those villages are in poor areas, all the "means of production" (land, cattle, etc.) they have belong to the village, with a rotating system appointing people to specific tasks, so, for example, one person takes care of the sheep one week and of the cows the next.

Also with all its issues I would still take capitalism over communism/socialism. If I have a good idea and have the drive to bring them to fruition I can still raise my station in a capitalist society vs being born into your station and if its not in the right group you are stuck.

The best would probably be a mix of the main systems, but that's something the people that controls things do not like to think, as it would spread their power.

Edited to add that I don't know if there still are some villages using the above mentioned system, now that living conditions in Portugal are much better than they were 40 years ago.

a reply to: ArMaP

You're taking a "we're above all this" position that is not realistic in terms of the situation that existed at the time.

Portugal did not exist in a vacuum. Any country in Europe that went communist, by choice or not, had the potential to trigger World War 3 by upsetting what was a tense confrontation. So, no, I won't agree with the assertion,

Whatever a country chooses for itself should be none of other countries' business.

Because when those decisions can affect the destiny of multiple other nations, it IS their business.

You are correct that every citizen of the countries involved are not consulted in such decision making. And I think you know that is hardly possible to do so, even given plenty of time -- time which was not available when decisions had to be made that could potentially plunge the world into war. Bear in mind: the technology available at that time was not comparable to what we today enjoy. Solely the time lag involved in communications could be dangerous because of the potential for new events to take place and completely alter the situation at hand.

Yes, you said 'democracy', not capitalism. My error.

Cheers

a reply to: ArMaP

In a republic in theory a blend could work, main problem would be the people that want something for nothing trying to push into the area to take advantage of the system and the people.

I think end game for the world will be many city states (similar to not exactly) where people of like mind have better control of their situation.

originally posted by: AaarghZombies

originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: AaarghZombies
On top of this, no country has ever been allowed to attempt to be communist without significant efforts by the west to subvert or destroy it.

True.

Just after the Portuguese Carnation Revolution in 1974, the possibility of Portugal turning into a communist country brought some US war ships that pointed their cannons to the Portuguese parliament.

As we knew how to take care of ourselves the US ships left, but the US kept interfering whenever they could just to keep us away from communism.

Where I lived the West attempted to destroy the country economically. They not only brought in tough economic and financial sanctions but they sanctioned any company that didn't comply regardless of where in the world they were.

I guess communism wasn't effective enough to stave off the US. And depending on which country you're talking about you can't just pick up when # went south and run with it while blaming the US.

Like in Cuba when they decided to nationalize certain products that were owned by US entities. What did people think was going to happen? That those corporations and the politicians in bed with them would just be okay with it?

There's a smart way to do things and a dumb way to do things, and unfortunately most of the figures who have been the big movers of communism throughout history lacked forsight or simply didn't care enough as long as they could get theirs while sticking it to their enemies.

originally posted by: AaarghZombies

originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: AaarghZombies
On top of this, no country has ever been allowed to attempt to be communist without significant efforts by the west to subvert or destroy it.

True.

Just after the Portuguese Carnation Revolution in 1974, the possibility of Portugal turning into a communist country brought some US war ships that pointed their cannons to the Portuguese parliament.

As we knew how to take care of ourselves the US ships left, but the US kept interfering whenever they could just to keep us away from communism.

Where I lived the West attempted to destroy the country economically. They not only brought in tough economic and financial sanctions but they sanctioned any company that didn't comply regardless of where in the world they were.

Well : at least ' They™ ' stopped right there, controlling the global financial interplay :
and don't also have any interest in subverting the world to Scamdemics™,
and Great-Resets™, and controlling the Global™ Financial™ Interplay™ , and ...

Do you have different colored glasses, that you wear at different times of the day ?