Space Shuttle Flight 14 (STS-51A) - UFO?

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: JimOberg

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

Of course it can't be a water droplet in space as if it was it would be frozen and ice particles are not round and move freely under their own power. ... The astronauts are made of mostly water, and they are in space, and they aren't frozen, so why would the water near them be frozen?....

Can we find some 14-yr-old Boy Scout with the 'Space Exploration' merit badge to explain it to you?

You cited me as saying it can't be a water droplet, but I didn't say that. That statement came from idusmartias in the opening post, so your citation should have begun "originally posted by: idusmartias."

I said it does look like a water droplet, among other things.

Arbit, please quote me correctl next time. I said, erroneously, that the orb looks like a water droplet, not that it was. I know better. I could not correct my post because I missed the ATS time deadline. I should not have said water droplet as a water droplet starts with a tail before separating from the source and assuming an almost round form. The orb in space is a round orb.

It looks like a water droplet that drops down from top center and moves to the right. ... Of course it can't be a water droplet in space as if it was it would be frozen and ice particles are not round and move freely under their own power.[/]

originally posted by: Violater1

👽🛸🧃Whats with the little bolt of lighting that precedes the UAP (at the very beginning).

Look for my reply below if that white mini-orb in front of the orb is what you are asking about. If not someone else answered.

originally posted by: idusmartias
I have to laugh at all of those who think it IS a water droplet either inside the shuttle or outside. Since it is obviously outside in the vaccuum of space it cannot be liquid!

How is it "obvious" that it's outside in the vacuum of space? It's not obvious to me, it looks like a misinterpretation of the video by you, then you compound your misinterpretation by saying it's obvious when it's not obvious exactly how far from the camera it is.

originally posted by: idusmartias
Arbit, please quote me correctl next time. I said, erroneously, that the orb looks like a water droplet, not that it was. I know better. I could not correct my post because I missed the ATS time deadline. I should not have said water droplet as a water droplet starts with a tail before separating from the source and assuming an almost round form. The orb in space is a round orb.

This is the most puzzling thing I ever read. I quoted exactly what you said verbatim.
Now you are apparently saying instead of quoting word for word exactly what you said, I should instead be a mind reader and should have figured out what you meant instead and quoted that instead? The latter would be misquoting you in my book so I have no idea what you expect me to do differently next time I quote you. I already quoted you correctly this time.

It sure looked like a drop of water to me. I've never seen this before and that was my instant thought. Has NASA ever said anything officially about it?

Sure is interesting if it can't be water drop though.

👽 or 👻 are really the only other options if it's not water or ice 🤷‍♂️

a reply to: idusmartias

I have to laugh at all of those who think it IS a water droplet either inside the shuttle or outside. Since it is obviously outside in the vaccuum of space it cannot be liquid!

You seem to be an easy-laughing person. Let me correct you:

First, there is nothing like the vacuum of space. Radiation is everywhere, in particular the cosmic background radiation. However, I'll be indulgent: you simply refer to the outer space, that is, the space outside the spacecraft.

Second: the space outside the spacecraft does not necessarily have to be cold. It depends on the distance you are from the nearest star (your Sun) and whether you are facing the sun or not. If you are, my friend, the temperature rises to some 115 degrees Celsius. It will drop to around -160 degrees at the other side of the spacecraft. In between, you can have the entire range of temperatures and water can exist in liquid form, albeit for a brief period of time.

Third: it is a drop, indeed, though I agree concluding it is a water droplet is premature. There are lots of substances forming liquid drops. Mercury, for instance. And a drop of mercury can long quite a longer time in the outer space.

Four: we shouldn't confuse temperature with heat, and we shouldn't forget that the liquid state is not only depending on the temperature of the environment; it also depends on the pressure, and it also depends on speed, time, gravity, and magnetic field (to mention just a few of the many parameters that determine the state of matter).

So yes, you can see droplets outside the space station and your spacecraft. And yes, you can even have liquid water rotating around a black hole, to your surprise: it all depends on a lot of parameters of which temperature is just one.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
a reply to: JimOberg
Jim, I sent you a private message, please check your private messages.
Thanks.

didn't see it. which address did you use?

originally posted by: MisguidedAngel
It sure looked like a drop of water to me. I've never seen this before and that was my instant thought. Has NASA ever said anything officially about it? ...

Yes, they have. But none of the 'not=a=drop' folks seem at all interested in seeing it, their minds are made up and they don't want to be bothered, apparently.

originally posted by: Direne
a reply to: idusmartias

I have to laugh at all of those who think it IS a water droplet either inside the shuttle or outside. Since it is obviously outside in the vaccuum of space it cannot be liquid!

You seem to be an easy-laughing person. Let me correct you:

First, there is nothing like the vacuum of space. Radiation is everywhere, in particular the cosmic background radiation. However, I'll be indulgent: you simply refer to the outer space, that is, the space outside the spacecraft.

Second: the space outside the spacecraft does not necessarily have to be cold. It depends on the distance you are from the nearest star (your Sun) and whether you are facing the sun or not. If you are, my friend, the temperature rises to some 115 degrees Celsius. It will drop to around -160 degrees at the other side of the spacecraft. In between, you can have the entire range of temperatures and water can exist in liquid form, albeit for a brief period of time.

Third: it is a drop, indeed, though I agree concluding it is a water droplet is premature. There are lots of substances forming liquid drops. Mercury, for instance. And a drop of mercury can long quite a longer time in the outer space.

Four: we shouldn't confuse temperature with heat, and we shouldn't forget that the liquid state is not only depending on the temperature of the environment; it also depends on the pressure, and it also depends on speed, time, gravity, and magnetic field (to mention just a few of the many parameters that determine the state of matter).

So yes, you can see droplets outside the space station and your spacecraft. And yes, you can even have liquid water rotating around a black hole, to your surprise: it all depends on a lot of parameters of which temperature is just one.

It's also worth noting that things don't freeze instantly in space just because it's cold.

It's not like in an atmosphere, like on Earth, where water at body temperature transfers some of its heat to the cooler surrounding atmosphere. There's no atmosphere up there to bleed the heat away to, so things cool more slowly than they would in an atmosphere.

If that is water, and it recently came from the station or one of the suits, there are very few molecules nearby to which to transfer its heat.

a reply to: face23785

"If that is water, and it recently came from the station or one of the suits, there are very few molecules nearby to which to transfer its heat."

You need to really get back to basic principles of space flight to realize how badly you have misjudged the physics of such situations. Water in a vacuum can 'flash-freeze' quickly due to rapid sublimation, cooling any material in contact, it's a basic cooling technique for space objects that need to dump excess heat from electronics or inhabitants. They're called 'flash evaporators'.

originally posted by: JimOberg

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
a reply to: JimOberg
Jim, I sent you a private message, please check your private messages.
Thanks.

didn't see it. which address did you use?

Click the envelope in the upper right on this site, that opens your private messages in-box, although by now the time to edit your old message has expired. They only give us 2 hours to make edits to our messages here.

originally posted by: idusmartias

originally posted by: Violater1

👽🛸🧃Whats with the little bolt of lighting that precedes the UAP (at the very beginning).

Look for my reply below if that white mini-orb in front of the orb is what you are asking about. If not someone else answered.

With my reply I meant to add the photo below to clarify my words.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: idusmartias
I have to laugh at all of those who think it IS a water droplet either inside the shuttle or outside. Since it is obviously outside in the vaccuum of space it cannot be liquid!

How is it "obvious" that it's outside in the vacuum of space? It's not obvious to me, it looks like a misinterpretation of the video by you, then you compound your misinterpretation by saying it's obvious when it's not obvious exactly how far from the camera it is.

originally posted by: idusmartias
Arbit, please quote me correctl next time. I said, erroneously, that the orb looks like a water droplet, not that it was. I know better. I could not correct my post because I missed the ATS time deadline. I should not have said water droplet as a water droplet starts with a tail before separating from the source and assuming an almost round form. The orb in space is a round orb.

This is the most puzzling thing I ever read. I quoted exactly what you said verbatim.
Now you are apparently saying instead of quoting word for word exactly what you said, I should instead be a mind reader and should have figured out what you meant instead and quoted that instead? The latter would be misquoting you in my book so I have no idea what you expect me to do differently next time I quote you. I already quoted you correctly this time.

The satellite being worked is in focus. The white orb (and its accompanying sub-orb) are also in focus, therefore it/they cannot be close to the shuttle 'cause if they were they would just be out of focus blobs.

originally posted by: Direne
a reply to: idusmartias

I have to laugh at all of those who think it IS a water droplet either inside the shuttle or outside. Since it is obviously outside in the vaccuum of space it cannot be liquid!

You seem to be an easy-laughing person. Let me correct you:

First, there is nothing like the vacuum of space. Radiation is everywhere, in particular the cosmic background radiation. However, I'll be indulgent: you simply refer to the outer space, that is, the space outside the spacecraft.

www.livescience.com...
"Space is an almost perfect vacuum, full of cosmic voids. And in short, gravity is to blame. But to really understand the vacuum of our universe, we have to take a moment to understand what a vacuum really is — and what it's not.

So, what is a vacuum, and why isn't space a true vacuum?

First, forget the vacuum cleaner as an analogy to the vacuum of space, Jackie Faherty, a senior scientist in the Department of Astrophysics at the American Museum of Natural History in New York City, told Live Science. The household cleaning machine effectively fills itself with dirt and dust sucked out of your carpet. (That is, the vacuum cleaner uses differential pressure to create suction. Suction cleaner might be a better name than vacuum cleaner). But the vacuum of space is the opposite. By definition, a vacuum is devoid of matter. Space is almost an absolute vacuum, not because of suction but because it's nearly empty."

Second: the space outside the spacecraft does not necessarily have to be cold. It depends on the distance you are from the nearest star (your Sun) and whether you are facing the sun or not. If you are, my friend, the temperature rises to some 115 degrees Celsius. It will drop to around -160 degrees at the other side of the spacecraft. In between, you can have the entire range of temperatures and water can exist in liquid form, albeit for a brief period of time.

"Hot things move quickly, cold things very slowly. If atoms come to a complete stop, they are at absolute zero. Space is just above that, at an average temperature of 2.7 Kelvin (about minus 455 degrees Fahrenheit).... In some places the average temperature is 2.7 Kelvin, which equates to roughly a minus 455 degrees Fahrenheit. Yep, that's just a tad bit chilly."

Third: it is a drop, indeed, though I agree concluding it is a water droplet is premature. There are lots of substances forming liquid drops. Mercury, for instance. And a drop of mercury can long quite a longer time in the outer space.

You don't really know that it's a (water) drop, it's impossible.

Four: we shouldn't confuse temperature with heat, and we shouldn't forget that the liquid state is not only depending on the temperature of the environment; it also depends on the pressure, and it also depends on speed, time, gravity, and magnetic field (to mention just a few of the many parameters that determine the state of matter).

Disagree, illogical.

So yes, you can see droplets outside the space station and your spacecraft. And yes, you can even have liquid water rotating around a black hole, to your surprise: it all depends on a lot of parameters of which temperature is just one.

Uhh? Thanks for the laugh, I'm happier.

originally posted by: idusmartias
...The white orb (and its accompanying sub-orb) are also in focus, therefore it/they cannot be close to the shuttle 'cause if they were they would just be out of focus blobs.

Interesting suggestion. What did you find out about the depth of field of the camera used for that image?

originally posted by: JimOberg

originally posted by: idusmartias
...The white orb (and its accompanying sub-orb) are also in focus, therefore it/they cannot be close to the shuttle 'cause if they were they would just be out of focus blobs.

Interesting suggestion. What did you find out about the depth of field of the camera used for that image?

I don't always deal with the mechanics of the scene. I just follow the visuals and the scene shows something start to descend from top center, pause, descend and become a round "orb". I made the error of saying it resembled an ice drop meaning in shape only then in another reply I backtracked explaining in a more cohesive way what I really should have said about the round orb's shape.

I'm sticking with it being outside the shuttle 'cause an inside explanation doesn't make sense. I'm more comfortable entertaining the notion that it's outside the shuttle as all such objects have been seen in many videos except the STS-75 where the objects are called "airy disks" when shown close up. And, again, because the tether was close to 100 miles away the shuttle's camera(s) was/were focused on infinity so those white objects were close to the tether and NOT to the shuttle.

originally posted by: idusmartias
...
I'm sticking with it being outside the shuttle 'cause an inside explanation doesn't make sense....

I don't know where to begin to unravel your web of imaginary misconceptions about water droplet behavior inside and outside a spacecraft. Let me think about it.

originally posted by: JimOberg

originally posted by: idusmartias
...
I'm sticking with it being outside the shuttle 'cause an inside explanation doesn't make sense....

I don't know where to begin to unravel your web of imaginary misconceptions about water droplet behavior inside and outside a spacecraft. Let me think about it.

Go to page 1 and look for this reply:
Arbitrageur
posted on Jun, 7 2022 @ 10:18 AM

Arbit's reply includes a photo of a large water "droplet" that's irregular in shape (not round) and transparent showing the astronaut's colorful t-shirt through it. It doesn't resemble the "outside" orb in any way, shape, or form. I would have loved to see the astronaut puncture it! The orb under discussion is perfectly round and not transparent.

a reply to: idusmartias

idusmartias,

I think trying to explain to you what the vacuum is would be a waste of time, but in the meantime you could read something about the Unruh effect to convince yourself the term vacuum is just a household one which vastly differs from the real meaning in physics.

Let's keep things as simple as in your scenario and let's find an answer to your original question: can there be a droplet of liquid water attached to the outside of a screen in outer space?

Your answer is no, it cannot be, because according to you water would be frozen due to the extreme low temperature outside.

See, you seem to entertain the strange idea that the outer space is just damn cold everywhere, every time. Tell me, what temperature do you expect to find at 1 Km from the Sun? What temperature at 100 Km? What about 1 parsec from the Sun? What's you definition of outer space?

For what concerns STS-51, the spacecraft was parked at some 350 Km from Earth surface. What temperature do you expect the spacecraft to experience when facing the Sun at that point in space? And for how long? The average temperature of outer space near Earth is just 283.32 kelvins (10.17 degrees Celsius or 50.3 degrees Fahrenheit). It is the lack of molecules and the lack of pressure what makes solar radiation heat to increase temperature to about 130 degrees Celsius, provided you are exposed to the Sun.

So there you are: your droplet should not get frozen, as you stated, but evaporated!

But the main point here is that there are specific geometries Earth-Spacecraft-Sun which makes temperature to swing from one extreme to the other, passing from low temperatures to high temperatures in a brief lapse of time, all of which means that, though for a brief moment, there could exist water droplets in liquid state at a given moment. I can do the maths for you in case you wish to know for how long can a liquid droplet exist in that specific scenario (the STS-51 mission), but I prefer to advance the solution right now: time enough for a liquid droplet to graciously moves over the surface of a windscreen.

Briefly stated: if your argument against the droplet hypothesis is solely based on the freezing low temperatures in outer space, you are wrong. Please, be reasonable.

originally posted by: Direne
a reply to: idusmartias

idusmartias,

I think trying to explain to you what the vacuum is would be a waste of time, but in the meantime you could read something about the Unruh effect to convince yourself the term vacuum is just a household one which vastly differs from the real meaning in physics.

Let's keep things as simple as in your scenario and let's find an answer to your original question: can there be a droplet of liquid water attached to the outside of a screen in outer space?

snip


That is not my original question, if I asked one. Those are not my words, you created them. You made many questionable statements and I found legit sources to counter them. I hope you are not a school teacher.

a reply to: idusmartias

So? Do you have anything about school teachers, other than they failed in teaching you some basic physics?