Religion vs. Spritualism

Seeking religion with respect to answers is good when the questions are religious, if they are not really related one can often be left feeling empty.

Spiritualism is not really the same as religion its more about finding your center the place in you where your ability to reason exceeds the sum total of what you in your life can confront. You do often find people in church who respond in this way, applying there faith along these lines potentially this could be a reason why a friend might sugest this route.

One has to actually believe something in order to have faith in it and that can be difficult for many reasons, often times religions are more about the people involved than God and that can make you feel uncomfortable.

Have you ever heard of what is called a mutual admiration society that is where people get together for a common ideal. Often choosing to ignore whatever fallacies exist as reasons to find fault.

Sometimes accepting the bad despite the good where no real substantive reward is evident makes one feel empty (by substantive I mean with respect to emotional, financial and spiritual support).

Often times this is why people are attracted to cults as part of the format for such groups is to play into these needs and to be specific, they offer a leader who seemingly has the abilities to perform miracles (Spiritual support) which is periodically reinforced.

The problem with this is obvious for several reasons but also because Spiritualism is really best experienced as a personal journey, its answers really are specific to the individual for many reasons.

Among those reasons is related to how the brain works, let me give you an example I am going to give you a series of words for which I would like you to think of am image which represents them�

Car

House

Boat

Train

Kindness

Cat

Dog

Friendship

Paperclip.

The mind tends to take more time to think about creating imagery with respect to emotions in fact there is often no real concrete symbol but rather memories, related to events in life which act as representations.

So that when asked to think about a car the tendency is to generate a general idea of cars, but when asked to think about kindness one begins to consider life experience�s in which sincere kindness was expressed. In other words no one reports what words, with respect to emotions mean in exactly the same way.

I can say to you �Bob is a really nice guy.� But my definition of nice and yours may be so different if you met Bob you could think he was a creep.

Different symbols means that when the relationship is real personal more in common is needed to maintain the efficacy of the feelings shared. On a scale of one to ten how personal is ones relationship to God?

My impression is that there are as many paths to God as there are individuals, all leading in the same direction, all equally valid.

Any thoughts?




[Edited on 18-7-2003 by Toltec]

Toltec,
I hadn't answered to this because I pretty much agree with what you have said. I think I pretty much said about the same thing when I addressed Maynard in his topic: Biblical Cruelty, in my next to last post to him.

The thing I am having a bit of question about is that why Religion vs Spiritualism? I can see where this can be applied to be a true case but I can also see where both are inseparable or "go hand in hand", so to speak.


Good read though with well meaning implications for thought.

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 19-7-2003 by Seekerof]

I've planned to answer Toltecs post here as it pertains to alot of my own personal views quite deeply..but I needed time first before adding my thoughts to it (which I will soon)

After seeing your reply though, I had to reply to what you've stated..

I agree, religion and spiritualism do go hand and hand. But disagree with you, that you CAN have one without the other..
You can be spiritual yet have no abiding religion, or you can be religious but lacking spirituality..or of course you could have both together..

I am living proof of one NOT to have religion, yet I would certainly consider myself very spiritual..and as I said, I will later reply to his post as to why and how it's possible for *me* to have one without the other..

Anyway, just thought I'd jump in and tell you that..
Magestica

Originally posted by magestica
I've planned to answer Toltecs post here as it pertains to alot of my own personal views quite deeply..but I needed time first before adding my thoughts to it (which I will soon)

After seeing your reply though, I had to reply to what you've stated..

I agree, religion and spiritualism do go hand and hand. But disagree with you, that you CAN have one without the other..
You can be spiritual yet have no abiding religion, or you can be religious but lacking spirituality..or of course you could have both together..

I am living proof of one NOT to have religion, yet I would certainly consider myself very spiritual..and as I said, I will later reply to his post as to why and how it's possible for *me* to have one without the other..

Anyway, just thought I'd jump in and tell you that..
Magestica

Yes maam, and I agree with your premise. I kinda, in a slight way, indicated that, but yes......I do agree that both can very much be separate.

regards
seekerof

I too gathered you gathered that, just wanted to *make* certain that you knew someone out there with one and not the other Or atleast knew someone who *thought* they have one and not the other...Ohh my, yes...be back tonight to tell ya my story..
Mag

Religion vs sprituality????

Can they not go hand in hand. Some will point the finger at spritualists calling it heriesy. But today isn't it simply accepted mystism, that is the blending of the two. I beleive so anyway.

Originally posted by magestica
I too gathered you gathered that, just wanted to *make* certain that you knew someone out there with one and not the other

Or atleast knew someone who *thought* they have one and not the other...Ohh my, yes...be back tonight to tell ya my story..
Mag

Look forward to reading it Mag.

regards
seekerof

well let me give you my opnion.
lets see if my english abillities will stand the test.

The word religion:
The categorisation of religion is used to decribe "groups" of people who belive in God in a certain image. That is weather He is the Cristians "God" the Muslims "Allah", The Hindus "Iswara".

This center of the groups attention is allways the highest being of the universe, and they are defining themselves as a group on the basis of how they are defining this highest being.

When i say "being" be sure that i personally mean a being who - in a mystical way - contains the universe,- and at the same time transends it.

But to return to subject: religion is shared, its a thing for the many, for the group, for the community.

I have heard that the word religion propably comes from french where "re-ligere" (spelled correctly?) means to re-unite. That will mean that religion originally meant to reunite the individual with God.


The word spiritualism:

The word comes from spirit. which is a rather loose term but i think it means the immaterial part of the being. This is propably not equalling the soul.
(If i am wrong please correct me.)
But anyway the term spiritualism in its deaper sense covers the part of the Soul - the Self and so on.
This means that spiritualism as a way of development is highly individual, since the soul is the higher octave of the ego.

*****

Then the conflict between religion and spiritualism (religion vs. spiritualism) is only present when the spiritualism which is practiced is in nonaceptance of the idea of the value of awareness-of-God.

Curde example: satanism.

Or on the other hand the practiced religion is in nonaceptance of the idea of the value of introspection, of looking-for-the-soul.

Example: limited christianity.

I think that a combination of the two aproaches is ideal for individual development.
I guess that i am a spiritual christian... (.. well i hope so... )

thats some of my thoughts,- please give me some feedback

I too was going to throw in the ole websters definition, because, yes according to 'web' they are totally related, infact almost the same(by definition)..

So "according" to web, it's impossible to say I have one and not the other..
However, my definition of spiritualism is somewhat different then websters, as is my definition of religion..

What I *mean* by not having religion, is that I do not go to church, I am not part of a particular congregation-infact am not part of *any*..
Now having said that, you can see what I mean by religion..but could also say that I have my own individual religion and spiritualism, that isn't based on Catholic, Jehova Witness, Baptist, etc..etc..

So now that we have the definition part out of the way, I'll explain what I mean, because I can assure you, alot of people are very questionable about people who say that aren't religious, but have a great deal of spiritualism..(as you, yourself have questioned *innerR* in your post) I am not a follower of Satan, or worshiper of Satan, so let's get that out of the way straight away..

Firstly, I believe in God, Creator, Higher Power..however you would like Him to be named.. I believe and worship Him. BUT, I also believe in a darker power which I believe has power over the *physical* world/people..

I was younger, then I am now, much younger when I found spiritualism within and am continuing to seek it until I am no longer physical. Without getting overly personal and long and drawn out, I'll try to explain as briefly as possible. There was a time in my life where darkness found me, or I found it? It was a time where you find yourself as nothing, completely empty of everything, there was no love coming in from any direction, there was no love for myself(so I thought) I felt trapped inside a place so dark, cold and lifeless and realized, there was noone else that wanted or loved me enough to help me out or even see that I was there..it was something I would consider as a state of inner hell. But having feeling that way, I was not ready or wanting to take my life and this shocked me, as I seriously felt there was no reason to exist as in reality, I wasn't really existing anyway. Guess alot of it was self pitty?? I don't know, I just had NO strength left anywhere. Yet I hadn't the strength to take my life.

So in the place, train of thought, whatever *nothingness* is where you either have to be found by evil, or complete good and Holy. It can be described by myself as an empty slate waiting to be written on by some form of power..it was a state of feeling spiritless, souless, yet looking at your body and thinking, "This is it" "This is all there is, and all I have"and yet it is meaningless, as it is completely empty of everything...

Something came over me, I'm not sure exactly when or what point, but it was a feeling of love, belonging, someone, somewhere wanted me to not give up hope, yet I could not see them, hear them, I could only feel them pouring something within me, it was a feeling and a capability I know without a shadow of doubt, I did not possess at that point in my life..But someone wanted me to go on and someone gave me that strength. I was overwhelmed with a feeling of love for myself, and from something/someone else..It was from that point on, I knew without a doubt, there IS a Creator of humans and He does love us, even though we may seem petty to Him sometimes we are all so very important in His creation/process of life. We all belong here, even when we are certain we don't.

This was a time in my life where God was right there within me/beside me..He gave me the only love that is capable of bringing someone from complete darkness..He showed me that we are all so much more then we could begin to imagine. He brought a life to me from a place within, which I call my soul..because you see, my body was there..but my soul had died in a sense?? Or I believed I had no soul, no spirit..I was simply flesh and nothing else..I realized too that my soul might have been trapped somewhere in the past..a place where it wanted to be, and remain? Really hard to explain, without someone ultimately thinking "you lost your mind girl"!

Now, He did not speak to me, I heard no talking whatsoever, but I just knew what He was telling me, without words. I grew from that experience, to have felt touched by God Himself..I grew into my beliefs from that point as well. My beliefs aren't from the bible, they are not from a church, or religion..they came from somewhere within myself..it's just a feeling of personal knowing and a feeling of knowing that I'm right, but am human enough still, to want to question people about things. Not things I necessarily doubt, things that offer me some form of sharing and possibly validating through others beliefs?? Yet without telling everyone how I came into my own beliefs and inner spiritualism (as I'm somewhat doing here and now)

This is a journey of spiritualism of my own, and a journey I have to walk alone(yet I am not alone) only alone in my beliefs/religion whatever..I do not feel the calling or need *yet* to be a part of a religion. I don't feel a calling for me to go to church, my church and religion is inside me..my faith and hope and belief and trust is there as well..God is inside me, my God and your God.

I have nothing but respect for people who do go to church and congregate with others and follow their belief through their church..I never think I'm on a more or less Holy path then anyone else and I try and understand and relate to everyones different beliefs, because that is their path, whether it be God who chose that path or themselves..if you believe in Him and you worship Him, then it doesn't matter where, or how you choose to do it...I do think it's sad when people fight over their religion vs. another religion, which is better, which is "right" and so on..and this to me, is the trap we set for ourselves by our own doubt..I firmly believe that when you doubt something, you try your hardest to validate it in comparison to others. When really, if you just believed in yourself and your path, there would be no arguement, no justification..Who can honestly say without any doubt, that they have spoken to God and He said "Your religion and beliefs is the only one, the right way and the only way to me" "All others are meaningless"? He is happy that anyone of us is worshiping Him the best we know how, even if it's completely contradictory from the way the "Smiths" down the road worship Him..

I have written quite a bit here, not even sure if it will all be read and if I've proven anything at all..I just cannot really explain in 500 words or less how I've come to find God and believe in Him without Church, or a set belief system..So if anyone does end up reading this and have questions pertaining to something I wasn't really clear about, feel free to ask away..I'll do the best I can to answer/explain better..

Did I get off topic Toltec? I think I did somewhat..I just wanted you to know how I am and why I am and how I came to find spiritualism and God..and that there definately can be a Religion vs. Spiritualism according to my definition. But according to Webster, I would have them both..confusing I tell ya!!
Magestica

Mag,
Having just read it, I feel you are a prime example of what I have been saying in many, many threads.....God reveals Himself to us in many and varied ways.

I was discussing with my brother-in-law the very same thing. We even carried this to the extent that that knowledge or revealing comes with, for lack of a better word, 'levels' of understanding.

Each of us understand things at different levels. Thats a fact. An example of this, in respect to the forum we are in, is that one person may view and understand God from a Biblical sense, or as confined to a 'box', while one may understand God outside of that 'box.' Don't get me wrong, religion plays its part in an understanding of God as does Spirituality but then again, these may be mere 'tools' for God to allow Him to be revealed in each of us. Once the concept and knowledge of God is revealed and then understood, if we continue to seek further enlightenment or understanding, God reveals more. Like levels of math, per se'. You take basic math, then move up to say algebra, then geomoetry, then algebra II, then pre-calculus, etc.

IMHO, I have always believed that God can reveal Himself regardless of religion or lack of religion. Church is not required. Church, to me, was for fellowship and to praise Him, but I have found that I can praise and understand Him on my own terms without attending any particular church.

I guess it all sums up to what I, again, have been saying. God is All; God is Everything and Everywhere. He reveals Himself when we are ready and we understand Him as much as we allow ourselves to understand Him.......its a personal relationship and requires no "membership" to join.

regards
seekerof

I'm saying thank you for taking the time to read my looooong post And thank you for understanding it/me..because like I said, we are still human and we require understanding from eachother, just as much as we require understanding from God and about God..we keep oneanother Holy while we are here *sometimes* tested on earth..And God keeps us all Holy enough to be able to shed a piece of that with someone needing it..

Very nice reply too...Funny how we can relate to someone without realizing it until later...
Mag

...amazing post...absolutely mind-blowing replies from Mags and SeekerOf...

...think you two said it all...so, I'm just gonna give ya both an 'Applaud', and thanks, for providing some enlightenment


Peace,
ALIEN

My reasons for choosing the title was not to per say imply the two were at odds with each other. But rather from the perspective of a comparative analysis.

If a religion is for you what makes you strong inside I feel that is really good but if that is not the case and as a result one feels lacking what Majestica has presented is potentially what can go wrong and often times when looking at our environment the alternatives can actually be terrifying. As a result what I am suggesting is that if one is of that state of mind looking outside yourself is not the answer (and I mean this in every way considerable).

The emotions we feel and how we define them are very personal, so personal that when it comes down to the friends we choose. The closer they are, the more in common must exist with respect to experiences.

Our ability to feel emotions is a factor in respect to development, no real reason exist to suggest that as we develop our ability to respond to our emotions will improve.

If one can move a mountain one has proven beyond any shadow of doubt that the have the faith of a mustard seed, and that would in reality be very impressive if in fact one is a mustard seed.

Otherwise one has much to learn.

Any thoughts?

Toltec,

I do think though, that we can feel empty sometimes, whether we have faith, go to church, or just believe in Him from within..I really do think that there are times where we are spinning so fast in our physical lives that we either neglect certain connections being shown from God, or He chooses to walk away for a bit and see how we do without Him??

I believe everyone who really and truly believes in God is tested by Him..there are folks who've been devout nearly all of their lives, that somehow lose their faith, even if for a moment. I don't think God is not without questioning..because too, we always need to think that the closer we become to God, the more eager Satan, or darkness is apt to steal that away..

So to answer what you've stated or really to agree with you, yes there are times when I feel empty. Is it because I don't go to church? I don't think so. It's not as though I'm going to walk in a church and feel full again. I think it's in that emptiness, that we can learn more and grow that much closer to God, there seems to me to be never enough or all to be learned and felt from Him. We are afterall earthly, wheras God is heavenly, and until that time when we become heavenly, we are going to be tested, feel emptiness, and question..because we aren't *complete* yet..

And also, as you've stated emotions play a big part of how we feel God inside of us. Obviously if we are full of hatred we aren't really feeling the affects of Him..but I wouldn't say that it's because we lost Him, completely..
We just have made that emotion become the barrier between ourselves and God..but I also feel that love can become a barrier, when we compltely absorb ourselves in loving something/someone earthly, we have forgotten maybe that we are consuming too much love into that something and therefore it's placed a love barrier between us and God..it almost could be considered pushing Him or would you think it was more of pulling Him in? I just often wonder if we are actually meant to love another as much as we are suppose to only love God? Because often times too, when you do love someone that much, it seems that that is when you are tested the most. But is it a test from God or Satan?

Thoughts please
Magestica

Originally posted by Toltec

If one can move a mountain one has proven beyond any shadow of doubt that the have the faith of a mustard seed, and that would in reality be very impressive if in fact one is a mustard seed.

Otherwise one has much to learn.

Any thoughts?

That reminds me of a qoute from my paperback bible:

".... And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge - and though I have all faith so that i can move mountains, and I have not love, I am nothing... " - St. Paul [Corinthians 13]

I was reading alittle around on the "religion & spirituallity " forum and that kind of reminds me what was wrong with this guy... wasn't it Brian or something?...

anyway Toltec, i think you are right that it is possible to be lost in the tradition and bonds of the religion, but that is very much when religion forgets about God, what happened alot in the states.
I think the relationship with God is a personal and individual thing and i have seen alot how the religion got messed on the society level in the states. (sorry - change of subject.)

magestica : It sounds like you asked and was given.
wonderfull!





to your last post:
I think the church should be whereever you want it to be. The church is just a state of mind.

About loving a person more than God:
I think its valid to love a person, because through that person you will love God.
God is manifested in aspects in all of us.

Also to love another person is a good training for being able to love God. Because the problem is not that we dont want to love God, just that we are not very good at loving.

But ultimately i think one needs to give God the highest priority.
- until then love Him through you loved one.

But then again - i can say that because i am not a very conform christian.



[Edited on 20-7-2003 by innerRevolution]

Hi Majestica, with respect to friendships and relationship my impression is the problems that can occur do occur, because people change with respect to how they define themselves. If the differences are big enough problems can be so serious the closeness ends.

What I feel is that these issues are not the same as how the self interacts with God, in respect to the inner being or sense of presence.

Listen to a song without words (an instrumental) one that is special to you.

In your mind/brain symbols are made which represent the melody. Even if you are a musician with respect to how the brain/mind connection evaluate and organize the information no two people are the same.

These symbols of meaning act to define the abstract. In effect the symbol itself are akin to such definitions which pertain to deep feelings (often referred to as stirring the soul).

How does one quantify God from the perspective of orientations, that to us are abstract, but are relatable to understanding the human condition?

As in the meaning of being created in his image. Or being an aspect of his creation and/or purpose/meaning of life from a context, which one can relate to?

As to such a degree, one has attained communion with ones center?

A response is to develop a symbol of meaning. One, which can act as a focus for attention in which ones thoughts which pertain to the individual (with respect to God) and are abstract, can be related to with respect to the symbol. As a result, conclusions are generated that are easier to interpret by the conscious mind.

Such an effort takes time.

InnerRevolution your quote from St. Paul is very relevant.


Any thoughts?

[Edited on 21-7-2003 by Toltec]

Inspiering post Toltec. nice

My thoughts:..

I heard and i belive and i am convinved that i experienced that God can relates to us as a "person" to another if we are open for it. [God created 6 billion individuals on this earth, so why should he not be able to manifest himself?]

But he is manifesting as energy - as a state, a feeling inside. i agree.�

Maybe later he can talk to us, at least that is what many saints and highly spiritual persons have reported. (ex. Yogananda: "the autobigrafy of a yogi.")

what a great discussion...

sorry i dont write anymore, but i am (supposed to be) working right now, and the subject is quite difficult. It requires some time to go through what you have written Toltec.


[Edited on 21-7-2003 by innerRevolution]

I think I am understanding where you are going..and you are absolutely right..There does need to be some symbolical type of entry deep within to connect with God..so you can point and focus there and know without doubt that *this* represents God, and other things that enter and leave are something else..So that when there are questions and concerns we know where to find Him by zooming in on what we've familiarized inside with Him..
(am I understanding you by this reply?) Just want to make sure I'm on the same page as you..before going further..

Also, I always felt that by symbolizing or using something to indentify with Him, might be considered forbidden or false? I do have a feeling of Him, but have not given Him a form or picture or symbol..and too, I really cannot think of anything to associate with Him? I know you are right, because all I really use is emotion or feeling..and that can easily be confused as you can see from some of my queries in R&S..So any more thoughts would be highly appreciated Totec...And like I said, I'm not beyond religion or going to church, just haven't felt the desire to go..and I wouldn't know If I'd even feel comfortable..I've attended many different churches and something just felt off...Perhaps I'm just a hermit or something? I just feel too sacred about God to share my feelings with people or maybe I'm afraid someone might change my views about Him...and I like my views and beliefs..they are comfortable to me..Ok well I've rambled alot..so back to the topic..please post more if possible..
Magestica

Also~InnerR, your post are inspiring too...just thought I'd let you know after the confusion in that *one* thread..I do look forward to reading what you have to say as well

The intent of the symbol is not really meant to represent God but rather the abstractions inherent with respect to your personal understanding of your
center.

A potential symbol of meaning for example, is a crucifix or an abstract image (as in a mandala) or the word om.

Even such things as the subtotal of knowledge with respect to the known Universe (as far as you know) can act as a symbol (my personal favorite)

In respect to this keep in mind that God is beyond infinity, the symbols one can generate would never come close to being God and so yes I agree that such an effort is false.

What is being developed is your ability to become aware of those capacities which are in reality part of being human, such as with respect to developing Chi' power, higher levels of awareness often associated with spirituality in general. And capacities related to such philosophies as Gia.

As such these forms of understanding when practiced do not make it possible for us to become "like Gods" but rather as God intended, at peace with oneself and surroundings, as well more comfortable with experiences outside the norm
(for example in respect to perception).

Essentially Human Being with the correct training can do exceptional things. This is not just with respect to extrasensory experiences but as well with the gamut of all vocations and interests.

With respect to expanding your ability to becoming more self aware in regard to all the above. Properly practiced with patients and the proper resolve to developing your spirituality as an individual, allows one to interact with whatever life has to offer with greater confidence and poise.

The capacity to for example break 10 cinder blocks with a human hand can be applied and focussed not only with respect to physical strength. In respect how such energy can be directed; physically, intellectually, perceptually, religiously as well as anything that can be considered, which does not fall under the above can be acknowledged as realistic goals.

Without going outside,
you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window.
you may know the Heavens.

Tao Te Ching
Lao Tzu, 6th century B.C.

Any thoughts?

Ok, Toltec

I read what you call symbols to be "gates" or "keys" to greater reality.

This is how it works in spiritual practice which i can see that you are familiar with :-)

I think you got it covered nicely. But i want to add the power of the personal realtionship with God. Its for everybody and it only needs a wish and a bit of effort.

this personal realtionship is very important in christianity

example:

"Our father, you who are in the heavens
Hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come......"