Communism.. I'm down ..maybe.. but first

originally posted by: LastFirst

originally posted by: caterpillage
The problem with communism is the rich and powerful won't be interested in giving anything up, so they will stay status quo. The rest of us will slide down into "equality" which is the bare minimum needed to survive.
we will get our purpose of living by working to enrich the state (rich and powerful class).

If we, the little people don't like it, we die. Communism sucks because greed.

Bean counting.. not emotional repsonses please.

This site has nothing but follow along braindead emotional responses.

My apologies. I'm stuck in the real world, I'm not to good in thinking in imaginary terms of putting a steak in every mouth through statistics and wishful number games.

a reply to: LastFirst

LOL, and your emotions and feelz is all you can bring to talk about this. My shocked face.

Communism would be wonderful if nobody ever was greedy. If the leaders lived the same way everyone else did, and nobody had better anything than anyone else. But that isn't reality, and the non-drooling folks know that.

If you have more than tears, a tantrum, and weak ass posts, we can discuss it, but if not, TTFN.

Marxism is the theoretical framework which lays the foundation for the economic and political philosophies of socialism and communism. History and present day examples of communism can help define it's strong points when things go well, and its drawbacks when things go all Venezuela on its citizens.

You don't see too many people storming communistic or socialistic nations for entry, but they consistently overwhelm capitalist countries.

I spent some time in China in the early 2000s

On the surface there is a sense of order and national pride.

Once I had spent some time in different areas with different cultures and people I started to see the underbelly of Collectivism.

The rights and well being of the individual are superseded by the rights and wellbeing of the whole.

There are three basic groups.

Those that lead get big steaks often and drive around in expensive SUVs, usually black with tinted windows.

Those that adhere to the status quo get little steaks sometimes and drive around in cheap cars and on bicycles.

Those outside of the status quo such as those that adhere to certain religions or live in areas with different cultures like Inner Mongolia and Tebet eat dirt and get around by foot or on cheap hand me down bicycles as long as they don’t stray too far.

As long as people toe the party line and only exercise their defined “rights” within preordained parameters they live fairly comfortably.

Those that truly understand rights and freedom of speech and try and exercise them don’t eat steak. They are a hindrance to the national dream and the good of the whole.

a reply to: LastFirst

Look up how well the plebs living in Communist countries have lived compared to the ruling classes then ask yourself if the freedom of choice you experience now is worth exchanging for that.

Communism does not equal Utopia , at least not to the majority.

a reply to: LastFirst

I'll be eating grass fed beef in a different country while those stuck in a communist United States are eating soylent green at best. 

a reply to: nugget1

You don't see too many people storming communistic or socialistic nations for entry, but they consistently overwhelm capitalist countries.

That's right, instead you find intelligence agencies, mercenaries, and foreign soldiers flooding into socialist states.

originally posted by: nugget1

and its drawbacks when things go all Venezuela on its citizens.

Venezuela isn't really a good example of communism gone wrong, it was really a combination of two things:

1) Poorly done micromanagement. The government tried to micro manage every aspect of the economy along populist lines, but they were ... terrible at it. For example, they would demand that retailers give big discounts on certain goods in order to appease what they believed were popular opinions, and businesses just couldn't continue like that so they either collapsed of they gave up. Imagine suddenly being ordered to sell certain goods at below cost price.

2) Deliberate sabotage, the economy was purposefully destroyed by vested interest groups who wanted the government to fall.

You don't see too many people storming communistic or socialistic nations for entry,

Again, two things here:

1) You actually DO see people storming socialist countries for entry. France, German, Sweden and the UK for example. They have people beating a path to their door from all around the world.

2) The primary reason (Other than Soviet invasion, of course) that most countries go socialist or communist is poverty. Most were countries that people didn't want to go to in the first place, and where the populations were trying to leave. Socialism and Communism are typically a response to there being wealth gaps and wealth traps, so the only people who want to go to those courtiers are people in even worse countries.

Many years ago I went to red China because the skills that I had were in demand, and the government decided to try to recruit people like me. I went and so did thousands of other people from my country for many of the same reasons that people went from Ireland to America back in the olden days.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: LastFirst

Look up how well the plebs living in Communist countries have lived compared to the ruling classes then ask yourself if the freedom of choice you experience now is worth exchanging for that.

Communism does not equal Utopia , at least not to the majority.

Neither does Capitalism. San Fransisco alone has more homeless than the Entire of the UK, and rural poverty in the US is so bad that some areas have lower standards of living than you could expect 100 years ago. Other than electricity they're quality of life is worse than their grandparents.

originally posted by: NorthOfStuff
I spent some time in China in the early 2000s

Inner Mongolia and Tebet eat dirt and get around by foot or on cheap hand me down bicycles as long as they don’t stray too far.

Those areas have always been dirt poor, they were like that before communism, and the surrounding areas over the border in India and so on are just as badly off.

a reply to: LastFirst

There's your first problem.

It's none of your business how many steaks I eat.

Communism fails.

/thread

a reply to: AaarghZombies

The thing that I noticed in those areas was that the Han Chinese were imported into them and were given the management and government positions. They seem to live comfortably.

I made a number of interesting observations between our two cultures and governments.

I flew out of Chicago and on the way to the airport from my hotel I saw armed correction officers monitoring prisoners cleaning the side of the roadway.
When I landed in China and was on the way to the hotel I saw the Chinese equivalent. Mostly the same but the officers weren’t armed.

Another thing that struck me was how the Chinese were apt to argue and yell at cops.

Instead of cameras in hotel hallways cops were posted to ensure foreigners were behaving. I had a few run ins with them as my wife is of Chinese origin. We were often forced to get separate rooms.

In the smaller towns we were locked into the hotel between 10pm and 7am.

I have to admit that there is a form of unorganized freedom that we don’t experience here in the west though. I think it’s because of the inability to manage such a huge population.

Those things may be changing now that camera surveillance and the social credit system is in place.

I really enjoyed my time there.

a reply to: LastFirst

Communism, neither in theory or practise, was based on everyone getting the same.

In theory it was based on need, in practise there were different wages/salaries the same as virtually every economy.

a reply to: LastFirst

Great emotional response..

2 pages of emotional repsonses combined with social programming..

Not one repsonses in line with the OP.

Literally almost every post youve made on this site is an emotional outburst

You really have no room to talk and if im honest, your posts come off like someone whose still in highschool and hasnt refined controll over their emotions yet

Also I would refrain from attacking people on "emotional" responses when your whole post requires an emotional reaction to the truth of Communism on paper over the facts

originally posted by: AaarghZombies
a reply to: strongfp

Look what happened to Jack ma, he became extremely influential and powerful, and the ccp just scooped him up and then after a few weeks came back like a scared dog beaten down behind the shed.

Now, imagine that was Bill Gates under trump.

Yeah Imagine that, Imagine anything that you want that DIDNT ever and was never in danger of happening.

I dont believe for a second , with what youve described that you ever lived in any of those places. Your statements on it are so far off from what my friends who have actually spent most of their lives there have told me , that yours simply has to be an embellished lie in order to either push a narrative or just be contrarian

And we ALLL know you just LOVE to be contrarian, you cant step away from an argument if you can create one

a reply to: AaarghZombies

Many years ago I went to red China because the skills that I had were in demand, and the government decided to try to recruit people like me. I went and so did thousands of other people from my country for many of the same reasons that people went from Ireland to America back in the olden days.

So you used a market system that had a labor demand and you supplied it ... Capitalism at work.

Listen, I'm all for working towards more equal rights and job opportunities and other aspects of socialism, but you can't honestly tell anyone that capitalism hasn't benefited humanity. It essentially harness's our inherit nature as humans of being greedy and competitive. Capitalism of old is long gone, it died out in the early 1900's with WW1, but the philosophy and ideas behind it are still fundamentally more sound and in tune with basic laws of economics, such as you know supply and demand.
This whole idea of democracy at work and workers completing owning the means of production in these extravagant worker co-ops will never work, and most people don't want to live like the Amish of some sporadic network of Amazonian tribes living in near anarchy and take weeks to make a decision around a camp fire.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Hmm not really:

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs

Is what basically sums up what communism is according to most people. A state where there's an abundance of capital and resources to fill everyone who is productive needs and to also fill even those who aren't productive anymore or unable to needs.

The idea's behind the slogan involve actually getting to that point, and involves absolute free markets unregulated by the constrains of the capitalist class, who is most socialists / communists are getting in the way of the working class from fulfilling such achievement. And yes, government is part of the capitalists, so that needs to go as well.

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: ScepticScot

Hmm not really:

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs

Is what basically sums up what communism is according to most people. A state where there's an abundance of capital and resources to fill everyone who is productive needs and to also fill even those who aren't productive anymore or unable to needs.

The idea's behind the slogan involve actually getting to that point, and involves absolute free markets unregulated by the constrains of the capitalist class, who is most socialists / communists are getting in the way of the working class from fulfilling such achievement. And yes, government is part of the capitalists, so that needs to go as well.

Not sure what the 'hmm not really' means as you don't seem to be disagreeing with anything I said?

a reply to: strongfp

Communism is intrusive.

What I consume, what I use, what I want (versus what I need) is no one's business but my own.

a reply to: DBCowboy

Sure. Not gonna argue, I'm just talking about communist theory that's all.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Because the 'needs' part is just the bare minimum that will spark communism, from then on it's forward with the velocity of technology, which just builds upon itself. And it all starts with letting the working class controlling the means of production. According to socialists.