Day of the Wolf

a reply to: Crowfoot

Certainly, to follow the analogy to modern times, in most cases it would be like urbanites observing a picture of a hunting scene, already reinterpreted countless times, with very little idea of what hunting actually entails and no practical knowledge at all, trying to reconstruct meaning with no context.

Unlike technology the esoteric sciences seem to have degenerated from their clearer source or inception, which the Mesopotamians claimed were the seven antideluvian sages.

The empty ones in attempting to satiate their unfillable void confused the record more over time, with bad intent being much worse than misunderstanding in most cases, as they have an instinct for pain and which point will hurt the most.

To set the record straight starts within I guess, we have access to some of the originals now, and some of the scenes tend to repeat and evolve eventually.

a reply to: primalfractal

They certainly try to make the tradition their own but there is no possible way of understanding any of it within the context of the Bible, their main interest is with fate and destiny and writing after the event but they're in direct opposition to all the Divine archetypes represented in the Mesopotamian mythos, it isn't possible to use their own tradition against them so you can only fool people into believing it has validity to your own tradition to a very limited extent, it's like using the Lord of the Rings to promote multi-culturism, they don't just engage in intellectual property theft they villify the original source.

The irony is that the borrowed Babylonian bits are the most popular in terms of popular culture and in terms of intrigue, because there is underlying truth to the archetypes, and these were considered powerful.

You, River, creatrix of every[thing], when the Great Gods dug you, on your banks [they established] goodness. In your midst Ea, king of the Apsû, built [his residence]. He gave you an irresistible flood. Fire, anger, radiance, awesomeness, did Ea and Asaluhi give to you so that you might deliver judgment over mankind.

The element of fire was curiously associated with the river as seen with the association of Ur-Idim with Kusu

In Babylonian theological thought this avenging fire was apparently generated by the radiance of the river god, the namurratu and puluhtu, which attributes are mentioned in the incantation alongside ißåtu. This radiance, generated by all deities, was an essential manifestation of their numinous power, and several sources indicate that the divine River was endowed with an especially powerful form of it

The guilty party appears to have experienced, at the bottom of the river, a face to face encounter with the deity, whose unsustainable aura literally set his body to fire. The people attending the ordeal would also undergo an experience of the divine aura, but to a degree which did not endanger them physically, and the entire country would witness the glow of divine radiance .

River of Ordeal

That may relate to the seven auras being contained within the river, the two banks of which were Deified as Mešlamta-ea and Lugal-era, these are considered to relate to Gemini were the river/Milky terminally re-connected with the ecliptic plane but the place of emergence was Scorpio, the claws of which were the earlier basis for Libra, the Scorpion would also introduce the element of fire.

They are great warriors: their greatness is like the empty desert wastes. They are both the lords of the River, the River of the Ordeal which clears the just man.

Its divine powers ……. The seven divine powers, …… grandly established, adorned with the divine powers by the prince in the abzu, the prince …… adorned ……. The warrior qualities of Mešlamta-ea and Lord Lugal-era …… in the foreign lands; their greatness shines forth to the outer limits of heaven and earth, to the outer limits of heaven and earth. Your river is a mighty river, the river which determines destinies, an august river where the sun rises

Their power is a storm which could eradicate the Land. Mešlamta-ea and Lord Lugal-era, it is sweet to praise you!

River Gods

Because the River of Ordeal is concerned with balance and judegement one bank can be held to relate to subjective self righteousness and the other objective righteousness of the not guilty, thus the question is raised in Daniel of how long until they cross to the other side towards eternal life, and the answer is never as long as they continue to behave in a deceitful self-righteous manner, and they will die trying.

Spirit took the form of a dove.
She made a cross in the Jordan
and she lifted up the waters in colors,
and said to the Jordan,
“You defile me and you defile my seven sons.

a reply to: primalfractal

The "cave" is the "meme"; The "scenes" going on outside of it; The "trope" ...Religion is a rhetoric; That offers no question to be asked, as none of them are really the answer; Making the rhetoric; A circle of futility.

a reply to: Madrusa

That's all pretty interesting really, well no great loss if they jump in the river with apocalyptic glee delusionally expecting the promised land, no loss at all.

Sounds somewhat like spontaneous human combustion, always thought that was related to internal fire somehow and  judgement. Although scientists are sceptical there is still a few unexplained cases, along with the fact humans have to reach 3000 degrees to be reduced to ashes, how can that happen and not burn the surrounds.

In December 2010, the death of Michael Faherty, a 76-year-old man in County Galway, Ireland, was recorded as "spontaneous combustion" by the coroner. The doctor, Ciaran McLoughlin, made this statement at the inquiry into the death: "This fire was thoroughly investigated and I'm left with the conclusion that this fits into the category of spontaneous human combustion, for which there is no adequate explanation."

Science is good until it meets the edges of materialism, somewhere around the river of ordeal I suppose.

Of course the purification by fire at the gates of the underworld also harkens back to the beggining of the thread and the firewalking Hirpi Sorani cult, its a worldwide practice.

Sorta amusing...

Well, yes. A bed of piping hot coals does have a tendency to burn, as our friend David Saltzberg discovered back in 2007, when he attempted a firewalking stunt as part of UCLA physics department demonstration. Poor David ended up being escorted home with badly blistered feet, and spent the rest of the night soaking his very sore soles in cold water.

Guess nothing truely comes out of the underworld that isn't pure. It holds the impurities and recycles them, either they go or you go with them.

As he came to the mountain of Mashu,
whose entrance is guarded daily by monsters,
whose back extends to the dam of heaven,
and whose breast reaches down to Aralu,
Scorpion-men guard its gate;
Dreadful terror they spread, and it is death to behold them.
Their splendour is fearful, overthrowing the mountains;
From sunrise to sunset they guard the sun.

In Sumerian myth the underworld river Hubar is between the twin peaks of Mashu, along with the scorpion reference in Gilgamesh.

According to Mesopotamian tradition the border of the netherworld was marked by a river called Ḫubur in Akkadian and i7-kur-ra “river of the netherworld”, i7-lu2-ku2-ku2 “man-devouring river” or i7-lu2-ru-gu2 “river that runs against man” in Sumerian. Hubur, according to the dictionaries (AHW 352 and CAD H 219) a Sumerian loan-word, also occurs as a synonym for the whole of the netherworld (W. G. Lambert, AfO. 17 [1954–56] 312:9; BWL 58:7) and as the name of the place of the river-ordeal

This source claims signs of syncretism in the Hubar between waters of life and death.

www.journals.uchicago.edu...

a reply to: Crowfoot

Scene could be equated with path or view, even divine interface if correct, the difference between scenes on the wall of the cave and those outside, although really the whole thing is just mind. Sure modern religion leads either nowhere or off a cliff

a reply to: primalfractal

Someone wanted to get into a debate about herding animals demanding "sheep" remain a flock when they herd without a shepherd just like any other ruminant it was one of the dumbest debates that was just demanding and arguing instead of seeing the animal without the human. "Herding" is even human when humans herd it's simply called "society" when drunk on some perceived power from authority? An orgy.

Those(angels/devils as an arch) that don't participate in such things(orgies) no matter their age either see it as blood and violence or equanimity without balance, the sword of the spirit mistaken for metal knows that kind of rust(blood) doesn't make it up to heaven(the smile). Since such things are frowned upon many forget talent was the only currency and when coin was equated with trade of that talent a light bringer flipped the table preferring people to stick with their talents making a dog not a dog is just a cartoon and statue a mouth making noises for it or cocking its leg against another herd.

Those arches cannot see the great measure or angle being ignorant of it until they rise and fall through it with experience until swept away any clinging is frowned upon as it leads them in total even deeper into the void and shades of chaos not even knowing still being ignorant like the proverbial witch trying to sort out every grain of sand wanting her diamond whole and not faceted otherwise known as the perpetual widow from a past life all the way to being an old maid in the present one. The reverse story of the vampire left at the altar by some hankering fool thinking he can inherit the guys wealth that he never worked for due to a single note on a lute and single spice of fragrance and suffering such a fool to live just means another birth he or she may or may not be blind too occuring... ad nauseum is when all the usual players have had enough of those two and leave them to the elements as a new adam and eve having already tasted too much fruit and victory of others as a king and queen of the orgy.

The lament of the beggar is the foulest of the foul as it could be the devil that clung or the god that let go... not knowing one's own face before all of that was born the veil and a bearded bride is an old gypsy joke of the traveling circus of lions tigers and bears meaning it has yet to begin and also never ended as earth and sky are mere reflections of the moon.

a reply to: primalfractal

There are references to the River of Ordeal in Israelite Literature, normally in the context of being saved from it by Yahweh, in Sethian tradition they generally understood the Flood and the Fire of Sodom and Gomorah has having been directed against them and their having survived, in the Mesopotamian Maqlu texts Sutean sorcerors were countered with Fire and Water.

The Fire element and the seven auras more relate to the Cult of El and Deities such as Kusu as would the association with the Divine Mountain, the combining of the element of Enki/water and Enlil/Fire can be seen in Christian tradition were John the Baptist is effectively representing Ur-Idim, the raging madman of the river were the power is represented by plunging those to be saved into the river and then plucking them from drowning, a somewhat theatrical magical ritual, it is Christ that was considered to combine the element of Fire.

There is also a third element because this derives from the Mage cults of Eridu and the Abzu shrine, thus Asar and Kusu and Ningirim, the Divine word made effective

a reply to: Madrusa

Sethian ranters, it's a wonder anyone listens to them at all, just offensive.

Hursanu, the entrance to both the Underworld and Heaven, base of the cosmic mountain and "place of the river ordeal".



On the Euphrates river in Iraq lies the old walled city of Hit, nearby the ancient city of Is, place is full of bitumen and the river is decidedly wide and calm.



Both the Anzu bird and Humbaba breathe fire and water... no idea how it's related but had the urge to throw that in 🤷‍♂️

Hit was known as a river ordeal location.



Asaruludu as it's god.





Another place with a connection to the ordeal is Ningin, as the city of Nanse in the city state of Lagash, now known as Tell Surghul. Of the two locations it seems closer to "source".





But the "mouth of the rivers" at the end of the last ice age, where flood hero Utnapishtim was given immortality, would be my guess as to where it all began... Armenia, sure the water would be turbulent in those parts.

From this Lipsinki concluded that the entrance to the Land of Darkness, beyond which was the Mountain of God, was reached through “a gate of darkness, whose geographical origin is likely to be looked for in the tunnel at the source of the Western Tigris.” This, of course, was the Reverend Marmaduke Carver’s western corner of his proposed terrestrial Paradise, its eastern corner being Lake Van, with its apex in the mountain range that included Abus Mons; that is, Bingöl Mountain.

a reply to: primalfractal

The paper you linked to was good because it evidenced that the child of the Abzu, Damu-zi-abzu, another term for Asar, was the original archetypal victim of the river ordeal.



As the personification of the river he can be assimilated within it and then restored on the opposite bank, that related to the end of the growing season and it's re-establishment in Spring, the opposing bank in that sense is Aries across from Libra and the translation through six months.

This also related to trees being cut sown at the source of the river and then floated downstream, ideally to become pillars within Temples, the cult of Asar/Osiris, Nigin and Eridu were at the end point of the river symbolism.



There's the basis of a resurrection cult then related to the river ordeal but that would involve emulating the original basis, that is to die and be washed down the river to appear at a different point and time, Baptisimal dunkings that promise eternal salvation from the river in the greater metaphorical sense of the river of life and it's various trials and tribulations all derive from this, but entirely obfuscate the source and claim it as their own tradition.

a reply to: Madrusa

Circles within circles....

The Terminalia fesrival was at the end of the Februalia purging rites on Feb 23, referencing boundaries as the end of the Roman year. Yet there was another rite known as the Regifugium "flight of the king" on the 24th that existed in a strange liminal state before the new year on March 1st. Sometimes another 5 intercalary days were added to this time between times.

On the surface it appeared like this, after the days of Roman kings.

Plutarch holds that the rex sacrorum played as a substitute for the former king of Rome in various religious rituals. The rex held no civic or military role, but nevertheless was bound to offer a public sacrifice in the Comitia on this date. The "flight of the king" was the swift exit the proxy king was required to make from that place of public business. It may be that the two versions are to be reconciled by taking the "flight" of the rex sacrorum as a reenactment of the expulsion of Tarquinius.

Tarquin was known for injustice, and his son Sextus was said to have committed the unspeakable act of defiling Lucretia, a good Roman woman.

She wept, and a blush spread over a wife's cheeks. Her husband and her father forgave her being forced: She said: `I deny myself the forgiveness that you grant.' Then she stabbed herself with a blade she had hidden, And, all bloodied, fell at her father's feet. Even then she took care in dying so that she fell With decency, that was her care even in falling

This lead to Tarquin fleeing, and the end of Roman kingship.

Going deeper we find the waters of the apsu, the dying-and-rising king, the Goddess, and the river of ordeal.



It's a bit of a story, with added Grecian mythological elements, rather hard to work out the exact details, but I dont doubt the ancient rites, Roman kings, and Lucretia, were abused and ended, yet in a way unbroken.



Regifugium

So the sacred marriage of Inanna and Dumazid, the rise of the King always dependant on the blessing of the Goddess.



But life always finds a way, seasons as ages, turn.

a reply to: primalfractal


The Mandaeans are interesting because they placed their inter-calary days at the end of the eighth month correlating to Virgo/Sumbalata into Libra/Qaina which is the exact opposite to the Roman and the Parwanaya five days began with the Masbuta baptism festival, that the correct position for an innundation ritual relating to the end of the dry season as correlating to Hydra.

They nay take Hydra as the serpent demon Ur which could be derived from the Mesopotamian UR-idim, but it's never easy to say because they are crazily melodramatic.

Ur the Prince of darkness

a reply to: Madrusa

I'd heard of Mandaeans and how they are Gnostic, but didn't know about the Mesopotamian influence. Their beliefs are dualistic, and I'd tend to lump them in with the Sethians, except they definitely don't like them.

The oldest name found in Mandaeans holy books is Zazai. In Haran Gauaita, Zazai was the first of the seven Mandaean king-archers who destroyed Judaism

Some seriously extreme baptisers, like John whose followers they claim to be I suppose.

The similarities are interesting, here they mention water and radiance.

Pure Waters, waters of the Tigris rising,
Waters of Euphrates, that in a pure place
are created,
Waters, that in Abzu are carefully brought up,
Pure lips of Enki have cleared.
Sons Abzu - seven they are –
Have consecrated Water, have cleared Water, have forced Water to shine.
Before the father yours Enki,
Before mother of yours Damgalnunna
Let it be pure, let it be clean, let it be shining!

The only surviving Gnostics, they have been decimated in recent times, a decent proportion of those left live here in Aus, wonder if in another thousand years it will be the holy Nepean?

On the banks of the Nepean River, rows of robed Mandaeans lined up for icy submersion.

a reply to: primalfractal

Well for our purposes they certainly have Devil Dogs located next to the scales, and Light Beings and Light Ships of the Uthras, there can be seen seven representing the seven aspects of Darkness, Ur-Idim/Lupus.



It would be chained to it's position in the Heavens marking the end of the dry season and the storms and flooding to begin Autumn, thats the simple version the Mandean is more convoluted.



The old version of the water-bearer sign for Aquarius can also be seen here on a Diwan Abatur scroll.



Curiously they do celebrate this at the end of February into March as their calendar seems out of synch by 13,000 years, Shumbolta is Virgo and Qina is Libra, all their constellations are out by six months with the calender, it should be fine though if they wait another 13,000 years to adjust it.

a reply to: Madrusa

They are difficult to work out, strangely bipolar, but I think they're OK, they still worship the old Gods and Goddesses while sort of pretending to themselves they don't.



Even call on Nanaya



Water penalties (Qnasia d-mia) is described as ordeal by water, probably by being held under for a long time, it's likened to a form of torture.




The Dhiba Hnina or little feast on November 18th shows strang parallels with the resurrection of Tammuz, also my birthday... just sayin.


The Baptism of Hibil Ziwa

a reply to: primalfractal

The problem again is that the current dates are dislocated from their original placement, were 18th day of Taurus would not have related to 18th November, also the sign that is currently attributed to 18th November in Western Astrology is incorrect as the Sun rises in Libra that day, not Scorpio, they haven't adjusted for precession in over 2,000 years.



There's a lot of ambiguity with their relationship to Planetary and Zodiacal lore and also Ruha as the Mother of these, but their original vision seems to have been one of absolute paranoia and that may relate to a schism with Judaism, were they realized it was all utterly diabolical.

Their general attitude to Istar and Nanaya and Lilith was that they should be bound and shackled which would be their context in exorcism, they shut down all the cultic centres.

bound is ˁUlmaya who dwells in the desert of Kulaniya. Bound is ˁIlmaya Dew who dwells in the waste lands of Ubriya (and) Amiqta. Bound is the rebellious, dog-like Lilith who dwells on the river Pišra and calls herself Mamay. Bound are all Liliths and Istartes who dwell in the fortress of Škatin (= Bīt ˁIškatil) and Šarmat and Batunia of Bīt Ulaya. Shackled is the Lord of Bīt Zaman. Bound is Istarte Amašmiš of Šuš-Birta. Bound and shackled is Ispandarmid-Lilith, who calls herself Lady (-Ispandarmid). Bound is Anahid-Lilith of Arimin of Kaldayye. Bound (and shackled) is Nanay of Borṣip and shackled is Nanay of Bīt Guzayye which is in Gahzay. Bound is Ilaha Bruqa who sits on the bank of the Tigris. Bound is the Persian Gisur … Bound is Mohbaṭ-Sahir who sits on the hill of Mura. Bound is Mlaka of Radin, the reckless Šṭurga and bound is Istarte, the Lady of Bīt Zibna. Bound is Istarte of the new town (territory), the Istarte who sits on the bank of the Euphrates and calls herself Mulit. Bound are the sixty-six Ilahas. Bound is the phalanx of Nanay, she and her seven sisters who dwell on the river Harin (or: Hurin) in Bīt Hašim (Hašum). Bound and shackled is the Istarte of Akat, she and her three hundred and sixty tribes … Bound is Nerig of Zambur and Ilaha of Bīt Tuldana, they and their imprecations and their tribes.

But they were still making Love Charms related to Istar of Arbela.

Upon thee by name I call, angel dwelling in Arbela that brings forth hearts and consciences, and takes away N. from N. and from the home of his father and mother and brethren and friends, and from his place and his amulet

They're sort of a classic example of throwing the baby out with the Bath water.

a reply to: Madrusa

So basically the Mandaeans were founded by ancient Jewish conspiracy theorists, got all paranoid their mates worshipped demons and were out to get them, and it was true 😳 I revise my opinion to negative about them though, can't be binding Nanaya.

Traditionally, the threshold guardian was a person or thing that stood in the hero’s way just as he or she enters the “new world” of the adventure. This was nearly always the first event that happened at the transition point between Act 1 and Act 2 of a story, and again between Act 2 and Act 3. An example from mythology would be Cerberus, the three-headed dog that protects the entrance to the underworld. When Orpheus travels to the underworld to retrieve his dead love, he must get past Cerberus.

Aka Fluffy from Harry Potter.



Uridimmu makes an appearance amongst modern Gnostic/Theosophical cults as the "Guardian of the Threshold". An initiatory figure, apparently sometimes seen as an apparition, that has to be battled before the student can access higher dimensions, a representation of the ego, or so they say.

The Guardian of the Threshold is a spectral figure and is the abstract of the debit and credit book of the individual. "It is the combined evil influence that is the result of the wicked thoughts and acts of the age in which any one may live, and it assumes to each student a definite shape at each appearance, being always either of one sort or changing each time

The modern Theosophical threshold guardian has roots in the Hebrew Merkabah tradition.



Now some might argue that these cabalah figures are guarding heaven not hell, so therefore should be related to the bull man, but Hebrew tradition is inverted so it should really be looked at as a decent... mad dogs.

a reply to: primalfractal

As a guardian figure we can summarize that as the dividing point between Order into Chaos, Light into Darkness and Good into Evil as regards the Beast Therion in terms of Cosmic Melodrama and dangerous misadventures, but generally it was what we call Autumn, it does make for a good plot device, a dark stormy night and a dread figure entering upon the scene with ominous tidings, i'm just glad it's Spring and the Dark Winter is no more.

a reply to: Madrusa

For sure, its been a bit like Narnia in the greater scheme, although it is autumn here, but our winters pretty tame. There is that double meaning of the Lupercalia, as foreboding mad dog not in the right time frame of autumn. Also the second one, as the winner of the Equirria horse race dedicated to Mars, and his rebirth on March 1st, the sacred rites of spring.

The bridegroom is coming in

Equal to Ares

Hymenaios

Happy bridegroom, your marriage has been fulfilled as you prayed, you have the girl for whom you prayed . . . Your  form is graceful, your eyes . . . gentle, and love streams over your beautiful face . . . Aphrodite has honoured you outstandingly

There's an in interesting link between charisma, radiance, and awesomeness.

In modern terms one of charisma's definitions is a "divinely conferred power or talent". From Greek charis, "grace, kindness, life", and also-

Citing The Odyssey 8.175 , Richard Onians maintains that " Homer conceived beauty, charis, as a wreath or crown about things

Similar in the cult of Anahita/Nanay, probably derived from Proto-Avestan *hvar "to shine".

Khvarenah (also spelled khwarenah or xwarra(h):  is an Avestan word for a Zoroastrian concept literally denoting "glory" or "splendour" but understood as a divine mystical force or power projected upon and aiding the appointed. The neuter noun thus also connotes "(divine) royal glory", reflecting the perceived divine empowerment of kings.

Meanwhile in Mesopotamia it can be seen that Inanna gives strength to Dumuzi for him to bring forth awesome.

Mistress, you have given your strength to him who is king. Ama-ucumgal-ana brings forth radiance for you. Inana, you have given your strength to him who is king. Ama-ucumgal-ana brings forth radiance for you.

"This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666."

a reply to: primalfractal

I watched a movie the other night and really liked the ending which is what i was going for with this thread contribution, it was Coma complete with Reapers, sort of a mix of the Matrix, Inception and Tommorow World without giving too much away, catch it some time and tell me i'm right!

Or maybe you've already seen it.