Memento Mori. Testament to a false doctrine – there is no such thing as Hellfire.

Welcome ATS friends,

It has been my intuition since I became a Christian twenty years ago (by God, how time flies!) that there is no such thing as Hellfire, or Eternal Conscious Torment, or Damnation. I will give you an explanation of my solemn reasoning, upon which this intuition is founded, throughout the course of this thread. I will be including some excellent exegesis from Lazarus Short, a fellow ATS member, a 23 point scripturally referenced study which demonstrates very, very clearly, from a truly Biblical perspective, that a doctrine of Hellfire, Eternal Conscious Torment, or Damnation, is simply not supported in the word of God, and as such it is an imposition upon the Christian faith, rather than some unpleasant but allegedly necessary part of it.

No, there is no scriptural evidence for Hell or Damnation – some of you will find this hard to countenance, because your many decades of Christian belief had subjected you to repeated counts of apparent support for the doctrine of Hellfire due to its acceptance by senior pastors & evangelists over the last several hundred years. But you know what? Us humans have been known to be stunningly wrong about things, and we've been known to be biased in our beliefs, and we've been deluded, deceived & discredited over many, many points of supposedly certain dogma – all of which turned out to be wrong. Even in my personal life, as a young Christian I was a member of a community-based church which seemed to be doing well, only for it to later be discovered that certain senior apostolic members of the church were aware of abuse happening within the church & did nothing. God doesn't necessarily stop doing good work among His people while bad things unfold in the church in which He is active. I had a crisis of faith over this matter – how could God have allowed it to go on? But eventually, I came to realise that God will not do our own due diligence for us. He will continue to bless as He is sought out by His people, but it's on His people to root out the evildoer, as the Apostle Paul emphasises in one of the New Testament letters (can't recall which one).

The doctrine supportive of Hellfire, Eternal Conscious Torment & Damnation happens to be one of those areas of our collective historical faith where we've been hoodwinked into accepting the agenda of our Enemy, operative undercover within the hallowed halls of the Catholic church. It is often said that any organisation formed to stand against some person, group or power, will ultimately be infiltrated by the very enemies whom you had wanted to stand against in the first place. If we look at the modern Catholic church, with its viper-headed conference room, containing a scene which is akin to something out of Dante's Inferno in its stage background frieze – to St Peter's throne which is designed such that it encodes demonic images when reoriented - it should be obvious that the leadership of the Catholic church is in the hands of Satanic denizens, or Gnostics, et al.

The suggestion of Hellfire was an imposition, an overlay, a false narrative which was tacked onto the church's standard body of doctrine & dogma, which conveniently served two purposes – firstly, it glorified Satan, because it was a lie, and it was being preached at the highest levels within the Christian church. Secondly, it swelled the coffers of the church because more people converted to avoid going to the awful Hellfire which the priests ministered was awaiting those who refused to join the church. These two points alone are sufficient explanation for the explosion of fear within Christendom which came following the interdiction of (thoroughly non-scriptural) Hellfire in the dogma of the church.

As for me, my intuition, as noted, has left me in no doubt that Hellfire, ECT & Damnation are not legitimately any part of God's plan for Mankind. The reason has been that I have encountered God in the Spirit, on multiple, myriad occasions, and I can concur with the Apostle John: “God is light, in Him there is no darkness at all”. God manifests as an overwhelming, infinite presence of love & grace, total forgiveness & acceptance, absolute certainty that He is with you, is upholding you, and that there is nothing to fear. He sends beatific visions, dreams of prophetic insight, ministers known as angels who bless you with a word in secret, and much more. All of which is indicative that He loves us, has great plans for us, and wants for us to succeed in finding righteousness, truth, justice, peace & security.

I will now turn to Lazarus Short's exegesis. I have checked all the scriptural references, and 99% I concur with, absolutely demonstrate the perfect truth of this message – that Hellfire, ECT & Damnation are a myth, laid on humanity by its enemies. The 1% not in that main portion was just one incident where there was a possibly accidental misquote, which didn't really support the point being made. As for the rest, in the context quoted? Spot on, relevant, supportive of the hypothesis. Please do check the references, and see for yourself that Hellfire, ECT & Damnation are simply not a part of the scriptural basis of our faith. God loves us, and would not subject us to eternal suffering.


Continued next post...

From Lazarus Short, ATS member:

Religious dogma supported by fiction, even if it was epic poetry, it still wrong. Hell is a myth, a very bad myth. Dante got it wrong. Milton got it wrong. Mary K Baxter got it wrong. Most of what used to be known as Christendom got it wrong.

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos – therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. The Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell” being involved, i.e., no “hell and earth” or “heaven and hell.”

2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

3. The Creation is properly a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell, with the Earth and humans as a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.

4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell, so Satan is NOT the Prince of Hell, but is bound to the Earth. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.
6. The Law that God gave to Moses warned of death, but did not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments were delivered in the real world, and the most severe was simple death. See Genesis 2:17, Exodus through Deuteronomy, Romans 6:23.

7. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes death, destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.

8. All people die, but none of them go to Eternal Conscious Torment – only to the grave or pit...and non-existence. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the center or marginal reference column.

9. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” (hidden, covered and unknown), was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

10. Eternal Conscious Torment depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.

11. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those who are thought to be sent there – and thus, for most of living (and dead) humanity.

12. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7,16.

13. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous, due to the presence of God’s Spirit of Life in each of us. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

14. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s also cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but Mary K Baxter depicts Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on… Literary descriptions of Hell, especially as seen in the works of Dante, Milton and Baxter, are clearly fictional and un-Biblical.

15. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not to annihilate them or send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

16. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

17. God is both willing AND able to save all – something denied by both Calvinists and Arminians. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

18. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – usually as fire, but sometimes as soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire...or as I like to call it, Godfire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.

19. If God’s Fire is for refining, and for baptism as John the Baptist stated in Matthew 3:11, then that which is burned up must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.

20. “Hell” is used in the King James Version (and others) to replace four other words: “Sheol,” “Hades,” “Gehenna” and “Tartarus.” None of these four refer to a place of damnation or Eternal Conscious Torment. Two of the terms come from pagan Greek mythology. See any decent dictionary, especially the Oxford English Dictionary.

21. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is an overlay, an imposition, an insertion into the text. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

22. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, such as the “Hel” we find in Norse mythology, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.

Continued next post...

I would further like to state that we can perhaps see that there IS a 'Hell-like' world which humans can come into contact with – the astral realm which has been poisoned by the presence & activity of demonic forces & personalities. Frequently in the past I have had dreams which bring me into contact with that realm, and it is certainly an evil place. However, it was not created to be an evil place, it has merely been poisoned by the presence of fallen, evil beings. One could say that it is a sort of Underworld, which has become similar to the sort of demon-infested pit which could be imagined as a true Hell. But fear not, because that world is set to be destroyed at the time of the Judgment.

In the Book of Revelation, it is commonly stated that Hellfire is seen to be real because of the 'Lake of Fire'. However, one should note that “Death & Hell* (FITO – *the poisoned astral) were cast into the lake of fire” ~ because they were not an original part of God's creation (per the first of the quoted points above, that God's creation was wholly good, nothing was 'bad', thus Hell was not created by God, rather a particular realm was overrun with demons, becoming evil in the course of time). As such Death (which only became real at the time of the Fall) & Hell (the poisoned astral) must be consumed by God's refining fire, in the lake of fire. Nothing impure can be permitted to remain, at the renewal of Heaven & Earth. The devil & demons are consumed in the fire, one assumes they are destined for oblivion, as it is stated that they cannot be forgiven. I would surmise that their destruction, which is stated to be a torment, produces a 'memento mori' which the universe will never forget, a memory of sin, though in the worlds to come sin will no longer exist. “The smoke of their torment ascends forever” - meaning that the memory of their ending will be stored in the universal memory, but it is only the smoke of their torment, and not their actual torment, which persists forever.

I readily accept that on the point of the devil & demons, I have no idea if I'm right. But scripturally, I know I'm right about the non-existence of eternal Hellfire. It simply isn't Biblical, and as they always say, if a belief or statement is not supported by the word of God, then that doctrine or piece of dogma simply isn't true in terms of the Christian faith.

This text is often used by supporters of the hellfire doctrine in support of their beliefs, interpreting it literally (or at least those parts that they want to interpret literally to make it sound like it fits their beliefs regarding hellfire):

originally posted by: whereislogic
This text is often used by supporters of the hellfire doctrine in support of their beliefs, interpreting it literally (or at least those parts that they want to interpret literally to make it sound like it fits their beliefs regarding hellfire):

I like the message of the videos you post, but I see the Rich Man as the whole nation of Judah, and Lazarus as the whole non-Judah world. One indicator is that the man Judah did, in fact, have five brothers. Jesus' Jewish hearers would have understood that very well.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

FITO, would you care to mention the 1 % with which you disagree? I may be in error, and I am always fine-tuning my position.

Well the O.T doesn't say there is a hell, and the only thing on fire, is God, and looking at him could ether crush or causw any witnesses mind to combust out sheer awesomeness or majesty.

All while being forgiven for it too.

All the while from what I recall, the crucifixion opened the door to Heaven, while Sheoul an Hades were interchangeable. All the while Hell is more akin to frozen tundra or wasteland then lake of fire.

I believe that those who deserve hell will be destroyed by the Father at final Judgement.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
It has been my intuition since I became a Christian

Watch the first part of this with an open mind.

In Matthew 25:41 Jesus says, “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”
So somewhere prepared by God?

Revelation 20:10
“10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
So somewhere for eternal creatures of creation, the demonic forces to dwell in eternity

Now I don’t believe humanity is eternal outside of Jesus so, non believers will be sent to eternal punishment, meaning just gone, nothing left, punished by being appolumi/completely removed, mind body and spirit, eternally gone
I couldn’t imagine heaven being heaven if I knew people I loved suffered and I am not God, God is even more loving than I

In the Garden was the tree of knowledge and the tree of life, should we partake from the tree of life, maybe that meant eternal life and why God barred us from the Garden

Are demons eternal, not sure of that either
Now a man who had an unclean spirit was in the synagogue; and he cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Ah! What have we to do with You, Jesus the Nazarean? HAVE YOU COME TO DESTROY US? . . . " (Luke 4:33 - 34).

In verse 34 above the word "destroy" is a translation of the Greek word appolumi which means to destroy fully and completely. This same word is also used to describe the utter destruction of people and places (Matthew 10:28, Luke 17:29, etc.).
www.biblestudy.org...

a reply to: Snarl

No thanks, I watched Zeitgeist years ago & it's full of false doctrine & new age nonsense (NAN) which can do nothing to save the soul of a man who is lost in the wilderness of this world. Try asking the spirit of Zeitgeist to deliver a man tormented by demons - not going to happen. You all conveniently forget about the least amongst men, who really need a saviour. Such people are sent in a rabbit hole deep dive of circular delusion for years by Zeitgeist & the like, instead of being led to Christ, the Alpha & Omega, the only name under Heaven by which a man can be saved.

Cheers.

Thanks for the OP, I do agree with you. The bottom line is to live the best and kindest life we can, help others, seek to do no harm and we will all find out soon enough what lies past our life. It seems to me that hell is living with Joe Biden as POTUS at the present moment.

An amazing indictment of this long-held axiom. I’m happy to see such a doctrine come under more severe scrutiny recently, and not just blindly accepted as valid.

What you wrote parallels my own beliefs. Thank you to Lazarus Short for the work, as well.

Personally, when I noticed throughout the course of my own research that “Hell” was used as a general overlay for Tartarus, Sheol, Gehenna, and Hades, my interest was peaked. Why use one word to describe four, very specific + distinct places. From that point on, I’ve been exploring all aspects of the debate.

Thank you for your post!

a reply to: LetTheColdCome

Thank you for the kind words. I had become acquainted with the standard theories of the afterlife + judgment, and decided to delve into the Bible to see which theory fit the data (text) best. I used an ordinary King James Bible, and made notes that grew into a 240+ page book. What FITO quoted were my conclusions after over two years of investigation. After I thought the book was finished, I had a hunch from somewhere and proceeded on a very tedious word study of "fire" and related words. In doing so, I wrote a new chapter titled "Godfire," in which I presented the idea that there are two kinds of fire in the Bible: natural fire and Godfire. There is no "hellfire." As for "hell," I traced it from the 1611 KJV, to "Beowulf," to pagan Norse mythology, finding the goddess/ogress "Hel" who was thought to rule over her afterlife realm of "Helheim" or "House of Hel." The Norse thought it was where you spent eternity if you did rate Valhalla.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

there is no such thing as Hellfire.

Yes, there is.

You don't have to take everything literally, you know.

Consider this Zen koan:

"A soldier named Nobushige came to Hakuin, and asked: "Is there really a paradise and a hell?"

"Who are you?" inquired Hakuin.

"I am a samurai," the warrior replied.

"You, a soldier!" exclaimed Hakuin. "What kind of ruler would have you as his guard? Your face looks like that of a beggar."

Nobushige became so angry that he began to draw his sword, but Hakuin continued: "So you have a sword! Your weapon is probably much too dull to cut off my head."

As Nobushige drew his sword Hakuin remarked: "Here open the gates of hell!"

At these words the samurai, perceiving the master's discipline, sheathed his sword and bowed.

"Here open the gates of paradise," said Hakuin. "

Now, 'paradise' should probably be 'heaven', but such is the world of translations. Still, I would consider this Koan to be more accurate than your dismissive statement.

There are many kinds of hell just purely within many people, let alone the astral side of things, where thought molds and forms the environment more powerfully, rendering the world more subjective than our so-called 'objective' world. There are many heavens and many hells in the astral world alone, let alone elsewhere.

Hell can be considered also a philosophical concept, and certain types of emotional, spiritual, existential or psychological torment can be considered hell.

In my opinion this whole planet and the physical plane in itself is at least a some kind of hell.

Don't come to tell me hellfire doesn't exist, when we already live in it every day.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Sorry, but this false. The following are from the translations Lazarus is using, which negate his entire argument.

He claims the translations for "eternal" are incorrect, that they do not mean eternal.

Except...

YLT - John 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

YLT - Romans 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --

To translate them as anything other than eternal in these passages goes against the base teachings of Christianity. Which is blasphemy against God.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
No thanks

That's cool, Brother. It was only a suggestion.

originally posted by: rounda
a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Sorry, but this false. The following are from the translations Lazarus is using, which negate his entire argument.

He claims the translations for "eternal" are incorrect, that they do not mean eternal.

Except...

YLT - John 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

YLT - Romans 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --

To translate them as anything other than eternal in these passages goes against the base teachings of Christianity. Which is blasphemy against God.

All Bible translators are human and therefore fallible. Young is no exception. Yes, God is not only "age-during," He is eternal, because He has no beginning and no end. Humans, on the other hand, have a beginning, so even if we are resurrected and live in the Kingdom forever and ever, we are not eternal, so "eternal life" for us is a bit of a misnomer. For us, "age-during" is accurate, even if a bit clumsy. Age follows age to ages of ages.

Beginning a post with "Sorry, but this is false." is a bad beginning, for the "this" is not identified and you should not put the conclusion before the argument. Ending with an accusation of "blasphemy" is unfair and an overreach, IMHO. Why don't you go the course and call me a heretic and demand I be burned at the stake? Anyway, universal reconciliation was dominant in Christianity for centuries before Team Hell took over, so I can (if pressed) hurl it right back. But I don't for the UR crowd is not so quick at judgment and accusation. Judgment is God's job, not ours. Accusation is Satan's job, not ours.

originally posted by: Shoujikina
a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

there is no such thing as Hellfire.

Yes, there is.

You don't have to take everything literally, you know.

Consider this Zen koan:

"A soldier named Nobushige came to Hakuin, and asked: "Is there really a paradise and a hell?"

"Who are you?" inquired Hakuin.

"I am a samurai," the warrior replied.

"You, a soldier!" exclaimed Hakuin. "What kind of ruler would have you as his guard? Your face looks like that of a beggar."

Nobushige became so angry that he began to draw his sword, but Hakuin continued: "So you have a sword! Your weapon is probably much too dull to cut off my head."

As Nobushige drew his sword Hakuin remarked: "Here open the gates of hell!"

At these words the samurai, perceiving the master's discipline, sheathed his sword and bowed.

"Here open the gates of paradise," said Hakuin. "

Now, 'paradise' should probably be 'heaven', but such is the world of translations. Still, I would consider this Koan to be more accurate than your dismissive statement.

There are many kinds of hell just purely within many people, let alone the astral side of things, where thought molds and forms the environment more powerfully, rendering the world more subjective than our so-called 'objective' world. There are many heavens and many hells in the astral world alone, let alone elsewhere.

Hell can be considered also a philosophical concept, and certain types of emotional, spiritual, existential or psychological torment can be considered hell.

In my opinion this whole planet and the physical plane in itself is at least a some kind of hell.

Don't come to tell me hellfire doesn't exist, when we already live in it every day.

A Koan as proof of "hell"? I like the story, but it is hardly theology.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: rounda
a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Sorry, but this false. The following are from the translations Lazarus is using, which negate his entire argument.

He claims the translations for "eternal" are incorrect, that they do not mean eternal.

Except...

YLT - John 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

YLT - Romans 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --

To translate them as anything other than eternal in these passages goes against the base teachings of Christianity. Which is blasphemy against God.

All Bible translators are human and therefore fallible. Young is no exception. Yes, God is not only "age-during," He is eternal, because He has no beginning and no end. Humans, on the other hand, have a beginning, so even if we are resurrected and live in the Kingdom forever and ever, we are not eternal, so "eternal life" for us is a bit of a misnomer. For us, "age-during" is accurate, even if a bit clumsy. Age follows age to ages of ages.

Beginning a post with "Sorry, but this is false." is a bad beginning, for the "this" is not identified and you should not put the conclusion before the argument. Ending with an accusation of "blasphemy" is unfair and an overreach, IMHO. Why don't you go the course and call me a heretic and demand I be burned at the stake? Anyway, universal reconciliation was dominant in Christianity for centuries before Team Hell took over, so I can (if pressed) hurl it right back. But I don't for the UR crowd is not so quick at judgment and accusation. Judgment is God's job, not ours. Accusation is Satan's job, not ours.

So if you agree that Young's translation can be incorrect, why do you insist on using it as the basis for your argument? It's literally the only one you've quoted, and I'm assuming that's because it's the one that supports your narrative.

What's unfair? That you're changing the narrative of the bible and someone is calling you out on it, and even using the same translation you're quoting to show you why it's wrong?