Ancient methods of dealing with Granite

originally posted by: Akragon
Thought i might as well continue to ask the ATS community more questions about "our" ancient past...

One that was brought up in my previous thread... How did they manage to mold and shape granite... to my surprise flint can actually be used to cut granite...

This is amazing... and props to Harte for pointing that out.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I honestly had no idea... and this lady also made a granite pot which is incredible... took her 6 months but regardless that is amazing!!

Except theres still a problem... has anyone heard of the Aswan Quarry?

In this video you can have a look at our issue.... an unfinished Obelisk has been sitting there for who knows thousands of years which pretty much shows how they somehow carved out huge granite stones for their masonry...

Apparently the mainstream idea is.... grab a rock and start pounding...

But... what are those scoop marks all around the area?

Almost looks like said granite was very soft way back then... but IF thats the case how would these blocks stay together with all the "pounding"

And we're still faced with the problem of moving something that weighs some 1200 tons...

IF they ever managed to finish the "unfinished obelisk"

Lets see where this goes

You can literally see the pulverized granite dust blowing off the boulder with each strike in that video.
The video actually demonstrates that granite CAN be quarried and shaped this way.

Harte

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: Caver78
Moving the stones I have no idea. Granites are beautiful but back busting. The other part, about not being able to fit so much as a piece of paper between the joints?

I do know as some granites weather in place the outer edges "can" sort of meld together over time. The pressure is one factor but just as importantly weathering can cause some stone to granulate and almost seep together.
Hope I'm explaining this correctly?

Yard granite I got from New Hampshire has stayed crisp and from weathering only darkened. Red Granite from the Canadian Shield has had a bit of crumbling but no darkening. So I'm thinking that if the outer joints of some of these monuments were cleaned up we'd find the joints aren't quite as exact as we think they are.

Take a look at my previous thread that i linked... in the OP you'll find a picture of how precise these cuts are

You can barely see where one block meets the other

They did make a few very precise granite joints.
But the granite wasn't quarried to that precise surface, it was ground to it (though some of it could have been sawed to make a flat surface, then ground to smooth out the saw marks.)
Grinding with another stone (and for finer surfaces, an abrasive) is how smooth flat surfaces on stone are accomplished even today. But (of course) today the grinding stone is actuated with an electric motor and not some dude's elbow grease.

Harte

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Klassified

i agree... but i admit i was surprised that it worked at all

Though using that method for huge projects is highly unlikely... which i linked in my other thread

how many hundreds of years do you think it would take to carve that using flint and hammer... not to mention the fact that the inside is laser precision, even right into the corners... and smooth as glass

Might be a ancient solution to some things... but hardly for most

LOL
The hollow was created by drilling.
You'd have to be an idiot to flint out the hollow in that sarcophagus while a hundred crews were busy elsewhere drilling out hollows in other stones.

Harte

originally posted by: mcsnacks77
a reply to: Akragon

The ancient Egyptians had working light bulbs achieved by what is called “Crookes tubes”. This has been proven but still people won’t accept it.

Harte

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Akragon
Thought i might as well continue to ask the ATS community more questions about "our" ancient past...

One that was brought up in my previous thread... How did they manage to mold and shape granite... to my surprise flint can actually be used to cut granite...

This is amazing... and props to Harte for pointing that out.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I honestly had no idea... and this lady also made a granite pot which is incredible... took her 6 months but regardless that is amazing!!

Except theres still a problem... has anyone heard of the Aswan Quarry?

In this video you can have a look at our issue.... an unfinished Obelisk has been sitting there for who knows thousands of years which pretty much shows how they somehow carved out huge granite stones for their masonry...

Apparently the mainstream idea is.... grab a rock and start pounding...

But... what are those scoop marks all around the area?

Almost looks like said granite was very soft way back then... but IF thats the case how would these blocks stay together with all the "pounding"

And we're still faced with the problem of moving something that weighs some 1200 tons...

IF they ever managed to finish the "unfinished obelisk"

Lets see where this goes

You can literally see the pulverized granite dust blowing off the boulder with each strike in that video.
The video actually demonstrates that granite CAN be quarried and shaped this way.

Harte

actually the video shows that hammering does not create lengthy scoop marks in granite... quite clearly

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Akragon
Thought i might as well continue to ask the ATS community more questions about "our" ancient past...

One that was brought up in my previous thread... How did they manage to mold and shape granite... to my surprise flint can actually be used to cut granite...

This is amazing... and props to Harte for pointing that out.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I honestly had no idea... and this lady also made a granite pot which is incredible... took her 6 months but regardless that is amazing!!

Except theres still a problem... has anyone heard of the Aswan Quarry?

In this video you can have a look at our issue.... an unfinished Obelisk has been sitting there for who knows thousands of years which pretty much shows how they somehow carved out huge granite stones for their masonry...

Apparently the mainstream idea is.... grab a rock and start pounding...

But... what are those scoop marks all around the area?

Almost looks like said granite was very soft way back then... but IF thats the case how would these blocks stay together with all the "pounding"

And we're still faced with the problem of moving something that weighs some 1200 tons...

IF they ever managed to finish the "unfinished obelisk"

Lets see where this goes

You can literally see the pulverized granite dust blowing off the boulder with each strike in that video.
The video actually demonstrates that granite CAN be quarried and shaped this way.

Harte

actually the video shows that hammering does not create lengthy scoop marks in granite... quite clearly

"You can literally see the pulverized granite dust blowing off the boulder with each strike in that video."
What part of that statement do you refute? Are you saying that pounding granite does NOT pulverize the granite, and that I'm seeing things?
Do you believe that the Ancient Egyptians employed flabby-armed ladies in their granite quarries?
Do stoneworkers give up and shrug their shoulders after less than a dozen stokes of the pounder?

Harte

a reply to: Harte

And as the person that made the video states... they've been pounding on the rocks that are given as demonstrations for 10 or 20 years and only managed dust as you just said...

this doesn't explain how the scoop marks all around the area were accomplished... you can't pound out huge scoops in granite with a rock... apparently "scoop marks" isn't specific enough... or you just didn't pay attention while watching the video...



again... you can not make those marks with a rock.... can't be done... never been demonstrated IF it can be.

and it was said that the marks look more like sand blasting...

not to mention said marks are found under the unfinished obelisk... which is even more impossible considering the tight space...

heres more of said scoop marks.... a little more detail in this video

www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Harte

this doesn't explain how the scoop marks all around the area were accomplished... you can't pound out huge scoops in granite with a rock... apparently "scoop marks" isn't specific enough... or you just didn't pay attention while watching the video...

again... you can not make those marks with a rock.... can't be done... never been demonstrated IF it can be.

Your declaring that doesn't make it so.

It is it actually what you get...the scoops. Why instead of screaming over and over again about stuff you don't understand just try it yourself? Would you believe your own effort? Or would you deny it too? lol

Here is yet more evidence you can scream about not existing. 18 seconds to find on Youtube

www.youtube.com...

This experiment finds it would take two years to create the scooping around the obelisk

More stone carving: www.youtube.com...

12:28 he talks about the obelisk but the earlier material is also very good

You will deny anything that doesn't fit what you want. Have I done it? Yes, at Rapa Nui, Cyprus, UAE and Egypt. it works. Your dismissal of it doesn't make it disappear.



Oh, if you feel so strongly that it cannot be done offer a prize of 250,000 USD to anyone who can do it - since you think you are right you cannot lose right? Chuckle

a reply to: Hanslune

sure... makes total sense...

why would they leave striations instead of just knocking out the ridges to get rid of more material...

and of course they bashed away at the rock where they could barely fit a man... and of course same goes with the sides of walls, and even in that pic you posted...nice deep groves... with rocks... obviously

Your video is a great demonstration on how to make granite dust... not scoop marks, but sure man

and in Peru they managed to make rock perfectly smooth, leaving saw marks when one looks closely... with rocks

Yup... like i said you have it all figured out...

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Hanslune

ds;lt

Yep you were wrong and thanks for admitting it. Well done, however, it is odd that you took your extreme and unscientific position without doing any investigation into the evidence - that is easily found. This means you are either an inept troll or simply so lacking in knowledge about the subject that you are unable to understand it.

a reply to: Hanslune

Alright...

well the commentary is unnecessary...no need to be a prick

needless to say this will be the last reply you get from me

Btw this is a conspiracy form... info doesn't always have to be scientific considering its mostly for fun

originally posted by: Akragon

needless to say this will be the last reply you get from me

Outstanding!

OVERCUTTING a slab of granite is the proof that tooling other than ‘hand saws’ were used.
And I’m not talking about electricity either .
Hand cranked tooling would achieve a suitable RPM for cutting using circular saws or slitting saws .
We hear constantly from the self -proclaimed guardians of the status quo on here that the AE had nothing BUT time on their side to create these wonderful stone objects , and yet, we hear nothing from the said guardians about the pointless use of this time .
Hypothetical Example from AE :
me and my work partner have just spent countless hours with our copper saw extracting granite slabs from a larger piece.
We have reached the end of our ‘cut’ , and the measured length we required, but because we have ‘so much time on our hands ‘ we decided to carry on cutting the same slit for another six hours or more, just to make some nice pretty slitting lines in this chunk of granite. We did it several times too in the same rock .
Sound utterly pointless? Because it is.
Until the said ‘guardians ‘ can satisfactorily explain ‘over cuts’ with handsaws and the reason , I am leaning ever more toward the thought that hand cranked rotational tooling was used .
There are many many examples to see , around Giza plateau for example , do a simple google image search .
I also contend that ‘Time’ was NOT something they had in more abundance than we do today , as is often suggested by Harte on here. How is this so?
They could not continue working through the night at large construction sites , no floodlit work conditions for, say for example , the Great Pyramid , one block every two minutes for 24 hours for 25 years .
Oil lamps? How many? How much oil would you need ?
Time was LESS on their side than we have today , and therefore OVERCUTTING the piece of stone you are working on is a) POINTLESS b) an insult to the Pharoah on whose ‘Time’ you are being paid .
Do we see evidence of ‘Over-Pounding’ ??!

a reply to: bluesfreak

its hard to imagine that the workers with so much time on their hands and with the skills to do this
and being egyptians they would most definitely follow the rule of "MEASURE TWICE AND CUT ONCE"

so its very hard to imagine they would make mistakes with over cuts etc
and if they are doing this for the Pharaoh they would have the best men on the job
not the unskilled FNG's who make mistakes , because mistakes mean delays and you dont want to delay the Pharaoh

originally posted by: bluesfreak
OVERCUTTING a slab of granite is the proof that tooling other than ‘hand saws’ were used.
And I’m not talking about electricity either .
Hand cranked tooling would achieve a suitable RPM for cutting using circular saws or slitting saws .
We hear constantly from the self -proclaimed guardians of the status quo on here that the AE had nothing BUT time on their side to create these wonderful stone objects , and yet, we hear nothing from the said guardians about the pointless use of this time .
Hypothetical Example from AE :
me and my work partner have just spent countless hours with our copper saw extracting granite slabs from a larger piece.
We have reached the end of our ‘cut’ , and the measured length we required, but because we have ‘so much time on our hands ‘ we decided to carry on cutting the same slit for another six hours or more, just to make some nice pretty slitting lines in this chunk of granite. We did it several times too in the same rock .
Sound utterly pointless? Because it is.
Until the said ‘guardians ‘ can satisfactorily explain ‘over cuts’ with handsaws and the reason , I am leaning ever more toward the thought that hand cranked rotational tooling was used .
There are many many examples to see , around Giza plateau for example , do a simple google image search .
I also contend that ‘Time’ was NOT something they had in more abundance than we do today , as is often suggested by Harte on here. How is this so?
They could not continue working through the night at large construction sites , no floodlit work conditions for, say for example , the Great Pyramid , one block every two minutes for 24 hours for 25 years .
Oil lamps? How many? How much oil would you need ?
Time was LESS on their side than we have today , and therefore OVERCUTTING the piece of stone you are working on is a) POINTLESS b) an insult to the Pharoah on whose ‘Time’ you are being paid .
Do we see evidence of ‘Over-Pounding’ ??!

and wasn't the life expectancy a lot shorter back then?

their working life would be shorter too, and considering the work and diet, it would be even shorter.

ts hard to imagine that the workers with so much time on their hands and with the skills to do this and being egyptians they would most definitely follow the rule of "MEASURE TWICE AND CUT ONCE" so its very hard to imagine they would make mistakes with over cuts etc and if they are doing this for the Pharaoh they would have the best men on the job not the unskilled FNG's who make mistakes , because mistakes mean delays and you dont want to delay the Pharaoh

Indeed , I agree .
a reply to: sapien82

Just as a clarification , in my opinion these ‘over cuts’ are not necessarily ‘mistakes’.
If you are cutting out a slab , or in fact , any shape, from a larger section of material, one will always need to cut SLIGHTLY past the edge you are cutting to ‘free’ it from its original block .
But you don’t NEED to continue cutting once you have released your new block/slab .
These ‘over cuts ‘ go WAY beyond what was necessary to release the new part with a handsaw .

To me, as a machinist, they show a couple of things :
1) They could easily cut past a required measurement.They REALLY wouldn’t do it unless they could .
2) a disk or circular saw/slitting saw was used, as cutting with a circular blade REQUIRES one to cut past your measurement sometimes - the bottom of the circle is the cutting face and won’t release the part until the full plunge depth and width of the circle passes through the material .

Something I’ve talked about in previous posts , and is critical to understand how something was fabricated , is the understanding/recognition of RESULTANT markings/techniques/ striations/cuts.
In my opinion, backed by many years of fabrication, tooling knowledge , these ‘overcuts’ are simply the result of a large circular blade passing through, leaving the ‘bottom section’ of the circular blade’s cut in the material.
The AE could also have cut one piece of stone on top of another and ‘cut through’ onto the piece below.
But again, why continue ‘hand sawing’ ?

Let’s talk about flat saws.Hand saws. Ever cut a piece of wood at home with one? What happens at that last mm of your cut? The piece you are cutting breaks off by itself if you don’t hold it, and it’s a very obvious FEEL that you have cut through.
Apparently highly skilled AE craftsmen couldn’t recognise this moment , and continued to saw away like morons. Which they weren’t .



a reply to: sapien82

a reply to: bluesfreak

What are the objects in the photo?

They are disks of various stones.
Cairo museum.
As someone who operates a Lathe, I often wonder how these were made when we are told that the AE didn’t have lathes. They are obviously ‘turned ‘ on a spindle to create them . They are very, very circular and true , aren’t they?
Today, in small handheld grinding tools, we have a selection of different discs that we use on different materials . As you use each disk to grind , the disc becomes smaller until it’s radius is no longer useful for cutting. Then you throw it away.
To cut anything, you just need a material AS STRONG AS or harder than that you wish to cut.
These interest me greatly . a reply to: Lazarus Short

How much ‘Over Pounding ‘ did you do in your oft-quoted pounding experience ?
Did you pound a few centimetres past your intended target measurement ?
If not, why not?
a reply to: Hanslune