Divine or Demonic?

a reply to: TheRedneck

You ask for clarification to lecture others on their interpretation. You will not understand them so long they dont change their interpretation of the word in question to yours.

You come off as if you think yourself hold any authority to the teachings of christ, you say that it is only trough christ and that the book is not the way, yet you rely solely on the book and discount any other accounts of idividuals that claim to know jesus just because it's not the way you interpret the book, or at least thats the impression i get.

This is circular and self perpetrating, if you put it past the powers that be to instal such a teaching to effectively withhold any individual to seek the truth through jesus and jesus alone I really see no point of going forth.

Why using a possibly compromised book as foundation to proof you are not compromised...
I can't have a serious discussion with that premise.

Why not accept that if you find your own line to jesus it is imposible to compromise, maybe because then humans can not control the narrative anymore? The book only serves humans to control the narrative, everything else can be accessed directly trough jesus.

I can't really define evil... That's the thing. It is not a concept I have learned not the way you did. I did not eat that fruit.

Evil by your definition would be anything that is not of God.
Yet all things are of God.
An act like killing babies becomes good just because God did it?
You really put it past TPT Were to go around and kill first borns, and blame it on somone else, humans do it all the time.
If what happend was to their pleasing it was Good if it was to their displeasure it was evil.

Even the exact same event can be seen by some as evil mostly the victim and some as good mostly the perpetrators.

If I was killing babies and wanted the people to be on my side id say it was gods will, even if it was just me that wanted to rid a genetic trait.

Some can get so tangled up in this good and evil they can seriously argument killing babies is good, because by definition it can't be evil coming from God...

Its only trought this contorted logic of good and evil people can actually justify such heinous acts.

The bible is a complex psychological maze, with just the right amount of the forbidden fruit to keep us hooked but not go all bat# crazy on everythin around us.

I think my mistake was to assume that by posting in Conspiracies in Religions, that people actually see the conspiracies perpetrated by their own religion.

If that awareness is not part of the fundamental dynamic we are discussing, there really is no point, to try and show you how they keep you hooked.

I don't know how to deal with Stockholm syndrom, unfortunately so yes I'm trowing the towel.

a reply to: Terpene

No don't throw the towel! I really enjoyed reading your thoughts, it was very refreshing.
Even if I don't 100% agree.
Like Jesus, right? A very ambigous figure if we assume we got to look for him a little detached from the whole good vs evil jazz.
I mean the man, brother, son, friend, human being. Because he was a necromancer. He raised a guy from the dead (Lazarus). He cursed a fig tree, because he didn't have a fruit when J.C. wanted one. Mark 11:12-25 when he went on that rampage and attacked the temple.
I don't really mind the revolutionary stuff, but strictly as a magician he healed and such, sure, fed his people etc. but he is a lot more complicated as personality than Christians would want to admit.
And I mean dying in agony from starvation and dehydration and exhaustion after days on a cross... doesn't scream 'success!' to me. Especially since what he promised, the kingdom of god and all that hasn't happened in 2000 years now. Doesn't scream success either does it?

In the way before times demon was a 'companion spirit' sometimes helpful, sometimes not, an inspiration or a distraction. But so were the gods too right, openly ambigous, chaotic neutral if you will.
Until J.C. the necromancer showed up, the Trump of the spiritual world, morally questionable, but with the job at hand the heart in the right place, just extremely divisive.
He hammered that home with the 'you are for me or against me'. Or at least those making stuff up as they went after his death did.
Now a demon is per default evil and if you want to speak to the Big Guy the way is through him, a dead man.
I have several problems with that.

What I think happened is that a dude like Trump found the secret of magic and cursed both the people of the original, the Jewish faith and those who followed J.C.
That is not denying that we had a good run, with all the progress in quality of life, sciences and all those things Christian nations achieved.
But if I look around it gave us Monsanto, Pfizer, the Kochs etc too. The Atomic Bomb we might see in action again soon. That's like the parable of the Apple of knowledge played out before our very eyes.

The problem just is: J.C. broke his promise to God, he was a Jew and became a minor god of his own. He lead astray so many people, just by his bequest alone who should have accepted the Jewish faith now prays to him. It's mind-blowing how people don't see that. Or could think God would be okay with that.
That's one of the many mental gymnastic mind brezel logical errors that made us so susceptible to the schizophrenic mind set that's now so dominant in our society.

Like I said detached from the whole good vs evil thing it's very ambigous, I like the guy, his ideas and such, being aware of the bigger picture I have so many problems praying to that guy. And really wouldn't know why I should.

Not that I'm really on board with the Jewish faith either, because I do think we should strive for becoming like J.C. but minus the heresy, the necromancy, the cursing and such for what he died.

I think that's enough for now.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Terpene

I will need some more explanation on that. Your post isn't making sense to me. Are you saying that people do evil because they think evil is good?

as long as you don't transmute yes 👍

Transmute: to change form, especially on a basic level. As in, transmute lead into gold.

I do not see how that applies. Hence my (probably too abrupt) question.

Good luck with that...

I don't need luck. I already know Jesus.

Please try to understand: that is not a metaphor, nor is it a figure of speech. It is completely possible to know Jesus, just as surely as one can know a spouse or a parent. Millions around the world have done it and know Jesus. When we speak of Jesus, we are speaking not of some dead guy, but the living spirit, the Son of God, whose sacrifice allows us to commune directly with God.

Anyone can do it, if and only if they are sincere about wanting to know Him.

TheRedneck

amen brother

and good morning everybody.

a reply to: Peeple

I like your style you're very blunt

No don't throw the towel!

it was a poorly chosen figure of speech, as it implies a fight... Which is not my intention.
I just don't want to repeat myself, when in the end redneck had his mind made up and just wasted some of his time for another fantastic idea.

Even if I don't 100% agree.

I would be disappointed if you would. These are usually the most boring conversations.

Or at least those making stuff up as they went after his death did

I get your doubts...

When I look at the time jesus appeared on the international stage, and everything that went down with his appearance, his death, and after it just screams cover up.
Maybe he learned some magick on the way to India and back, maybe crossed the mad Arabs path?
wherever he picked that knowledge up he used it to make a name for himself.
He could have used his powers very differently, and had much more personal benefit.
Yes I'm torn there too. I see a man using powers that otherwise are considered to be evil, but the way he uses them could possibly sway me to see them as good if I was on the recieving end. Which is still the same today.

It's either how one uses the power that defines the divinity of it's use or jesus was demonic. Now that was blunt of me.

Whatever, the right conclusion of that contradiction is he left an impression that sent a shock wave trough the establishment at the time.
Shown trough the various written second hand accounts of that time, the diffrent PTB chose their best off compilation to spin it their way. It's not that writing was something common back then, any literature was undoubtedly written under the iron claw of the powers that were. And they wouldn't waste time on something unimportant. But the actions of "the powers that were" brought him on the cross so I don't think they wrote about him in good faith.
Why I distrust most of what is written, I trust an empathic person to find the few good lessons you can take from the bible by themselves.

I trust that the miracles he performed where witnessed as described, it's one of the few things you would have a hard time lying about without loosing face.

What he said will vary with every diffrent account, as that is the nature of language, you can only understand inside your frame of reference, what he really meant, the conclusions and everything beyond what they witnessed with their eyes is easily corrupted.

What I think happened is that a dude like Trump found the secret of magic and cursed both the people of the original, the Jewish faith and those who followed J.C.

Lol, that just threw me of so hard this thought hit my stream perpendicular.
I can't even find another line of thoughts I wanted to share...

What do you mean, "a dude like trump"?

a reply to: Terpene

J.C. was a royal of the house of David, not the most noble part of the family given his mothers teenage pregnancy out of wedlock but nevertheless royal.
I just used Trump as metaphor because NY 'royalty' as in public figure with wealth and reach, and to drive home how very political and divisive J.C. was.

a reply to: Terpene

I can't really define evil... That's the thing. It is not a concept I have learned not the way you did. I did not eat that fruit.

So you have no definition. Can we then substitute the word "grace" for "evil"? In other words, back to your original premise, where does "good" stop and "grace" start?

Hopefully you see the problem there. I do have a definition for "evil." I define it as that which opposes God's perfect Will. The Bible specifies what is "good" early on in Genesis by stating that the things God created were seen by God to be good... evil would then be the opposite.

By not having a definition for evil yourself, your explanations cannot make sense to me... unless I abandon my definition of evil for yours. If I do that, then evil has no definition and therefore no meaning. We are discussing nothing more than semantics based on the purely abstract.

Evil by your definition would be anything that is not of God.
Yet all things are of God.

You are twisting what I said.

Evil is anything which opposes God's Will. That is not the same as not being "of God." Yes, God created everything, but by creating us in His image, we also have the power to create. What we create may or may not be in line with God's Will. The Tower of Babel was certainly not a part of God's Will, as evidenced by the fact that God destroyed it. Yet, the tower of Babel was created by man, and man was created by God.

Therefore it is patently obvious that the beings created by God can (and do) produce evil. The Bible calls it "iniquity," It appears to be related to what we would call "entropy." Lucifer, for example, is said to have been perfect when he was created, but then iniquity was found in him. Therefore something entered into Lucifer that caused his perfection to cease to exist.

The danger of your concept is that you can say, factually, that you are a creation of God. Therefore, if God's creation cannot contain iniquity, it cannot do evil. That opens the door to saying what you earlier claimed to attribute (as best as I could understand anyway) to the followers of Christ, that being that whatever you do must be good; you are incapable of being or doing evil, simply because you were created by God. Anything you do at that point is acceptable. Rape becomes acceptable, murder becomes acceptable, slavery becomes acceptable, genocide becomes acceptable,

All because you chose to build a concept around a word you cannot define.

If I was killing babies and wanted the people to be on my side id say it was gods will, even if it was just me that wanted to rid a genetic trait.

And the Bible would call you a liar.

You seem hung up on the final plague of Egypt. I do not call that act "good"... I call it maybe "necessary." The Pharaoh, if you will read the entire account, was holding the Jewish people as slaves. Moses told him, under direct authority from God, that God wanted him to allow the Jews to go into the wilderness and worship God. Pharaoh refused, and God used Moses to send a plague. Eventually Pharaoh relented, but then changed his mind. Another plague. All in all, six plagues, each one worse than the last, swept across Egypt before that final plague convinced Pharaoh to allow the Jews to leave.

In the end, the only thing that would change Pharaoh's mind was the death of his heir. Note that no man caused this; no man had a hand in this. Had any man done so, they would have been doing evil. Such judgement is for God alone.

I will also point out that even the death of the firstborn was not enough in the end. Pharaoh and his army perished beneath the waters of the Red Sea in their rush to still, despite everything, break their word and recapture the Jews he had agreed to allow to leave.

Had Pharaoh not released the Jews, there would be no Jesus and no salvation for those who seek God. Therefore, Pharaoh had to release the Jews. It is sad, it is actually a travesty in my mind that Pharaoh would not consent to ending his slavery of God's people until children were dead. But that was Pharaoh's decision.

The bible is a complex psychological maze, with just the right amount of the forbidden fruit to keep us hooked but not go all bat# crazy on everythin around us.

That may be your perception, but why is it that you demand others set aside everything they already know, to the point of not even being able to define evil, but when someone suggests you are missing important information you become defensive?

I do not have a problem following the Bible, because I pray earnestly to understand it. You do have a problem following the Bible, and you clearly are not praying to understand it. I see a pattern here. Do you?

I think my mistake was to assume that by posting in Conspiracies in Religions, that people actually see the conspiracies perpetrated by their own religion.

No, your problem was trying to propose a poorly thought out theory with no basis in fact. There are plenty of conspiracies in religions around the world that are based in fact. The apparent number of Catholic leaders who seem to be pedophiles... the evangelistic movement, quite often built around evangelical leaders who are hypocrites... the use of evangelical charities to line personal pockets while the impoverished starve... the sects of Islam who promote terrorism around the world and use their religion to try and justify it... even Westboro Baptist Church, which preached hate in the name of God... and there are many, many more. But all those are based in fact. They are not based in semantics and lack of definition. Your "conspiracy" is.

That's where your error lies.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Peeple

J.C. was a royal of the house of David, not the most noble part of the family given his mothers teenage pregnancy out of wedlock but nevertheless royal.

I'll freely admit that I am not as well-versed in the genealogy as I could be, but I never noticed where Joseph was considered royalty. True, he was a descendant of King David, but there were a lot of people who were descendants of King David. Joseph was a carpenter, at the time a noble and well-paid trade, and was certainly not poor or underpriviledged, but this is the first I have heard of him being royalty. I had always considered him a blue-collar, upper middle class tradesman.

Can you point me to where that came from?

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Excuse the lazy: quora

But also I'd like to stress the relativity of it all, because technically they were like you said far from the throne.
But my guess would be the killing of all first borns in Bethlehem is a sign that the throne was a little worried... another ambiguity.

sorry internet

its not true….

Joseph was not royalty….

however mary became royal with Jesus and brought the royalty back….

its clear people are not doing their due diligence….

i know because i am obsessed and addicted to learning the bible, specifically to follow my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ….

i study every single day lol.

its not true….

Joseph was not royalty….

however mary became royal with Jesus and brought the royalty back….

its clear people are not doing their due diligence….

i know because i am obsessed and addicted to learning the bible, specifically to follow my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ….

i study every single day lol.

a reply to: GoShredAK

Mary was.
I mean unless of course the whole Gabriel thing is irrelevant and Joseph was indeed J.C.'s true father but then you got gigantic mythology issues. Like really major ones.

right, Mary was…..sort of like when I wrote exactly that in my reply already.

a reply to: GoShredAK

No. J.C. had to be biologically from the house of David, because the Jewish Messiah he claimed to be has to be from the house of David.
That was his entire claim to fame, that he is the Messiah. If you want to say it was all a made up sharade and it all has no basis in reality you prove all of Christianity as a scam.
Which is fine by me, just odd coming from a devout Christian.

a reply to: TheRedneck

So you have no definition. Can we then substitute the word "grace" for "evil"? In other words, back to your original premise, where does "good" stop and "grace" start?

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged" (Matthew 7:1)

Consider this. A mind that judges good and evil exists in the temptations of good and evil. Christ Conciousness is beyond any temptations of mind. It is the pure awareness of being. The vine of I AM THAT I AM (Exodus 3.14) that see's everything AS IT IS.

Such teachings would have been too advanced for public consumption. Only given to advanced students that were no longer seduced by the worlds desires .... "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life, such a person cannot be my disciple". Only desciples that achieved Christ conciousness could "Love one another; as I have loved you" with a love that does not come from the limitations of mind, But from the very source of what most people term God...

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?"

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: GoShredAK

No. J.C. had to be biologically from the house of David, because the Jewish Messiah he claimed to be has to be from the house of David.
That was his entire claim to fame, that he is the Messiah. If you want to say it was all a made up sharade and it all has no basis in reality you prove all of Christianity as a scam.
Which is fine by me, just odd coming from a devout Christian.

Mary was also from the line of David through Nathan…..

at the end of the book of numbers 2 daughters changed the laws of inheritance when they had no brothers and God agreed that they were entitled to it…..

through marys blood Jesus is in fact the messiah…

God is really good at restoration.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: TheRedneck

So you have no definition. Can we then substitute the word "grace" for "evil"? In other words, back to your original premise, where does "good" stop and "grace" start?

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged" (Matthew 7:1)

Consider this. A mind that judges good and evil exists in the temptations of good and evil. Christ Conciousness is beyond any temptations of mind. It is the pure awareness of being. The vine of I AM THAT I AM (Exodus 3.14) that see's everything AS IT IS.

Such teachings would have been too advanced for public consumption. Only given to advanced students that were no longer seduced by the worlds desires .... "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life, such a person cannot be my disciple". Only desciples that achieved Christ conciousness could "Love one another; as I have loved you" with a love that does not come from the limitations of mind, But from the very source of what most people term God...

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?"

indeed….

we are to focus on Christ and his perfect work and his faithfulness…..

not our own works or our own degree of faith….

and really have no place judging good or evil….

the gospel is very simple……..and the more I learn the less I see any value to these discussions…..

Like Solomon said its like trying to grasp the wind in vain, all vanity….

just focus on Jesus.

a reply to: mcsnacks77

I think revelation is a testimony of Johns journey into the temple within. The seven gates that John passed are the Sefirot/chakra's within the tree. The four faces are the cherubim that sing holy holy holy whilst clensing the self of any remaining ego before the throne of God. Revelation validates that the path of Christianity can result in salvation.

a reply to: Peeple

That is interesting! Thanks for pointing that out for me.

I'll have to find time to research it.

TheRedneck

a reply to: glend

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged" (Matthew 7:1)

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)

TheRedneck