Don't point your finger at me!!!

Why am "I" at fault?
This kind of non-sense goes on all the time and sadly enough we get it from our own so called "Americans"

There are some things in modern, civilized society you just don’t do. Maybe you don’t do it out of common decency, like fart in church. Maybe you don’t do it because you know better, like pissing into the wind. And maybe you don’t do it because that’s just the way it’s always been, like putting honey on your child’s hand to get that nice bear closer to your Volvo. But I think, despite tradition and experience and all the studying in the world, one major “do not” in today’s time is this: Do not talk politics, government, and war with the average United States Marine (Im an exception, why else would I be on ATS).

Case in point: My friend (referred to as Bob) and I were kicking back on Friday at a local bar. I was enjoying my ice cold beer, and he his beer, at a small, round table with three wooden chairs. A singer was on the small stage singing the likes of the Eagles, Simon and Garfunkel, Deep Blue Something, Don McClean, Billy Joel, and countless others. He’s a crowd pleasing dynamo, old man, but a little weird looking.

Bob I had just finished singing along to a rousing version of John Denver’s Take Me Home Country Roads, when an older lady, probably in her fifties, approached our table and asked if she could sit at our extra chair. I happily obliged, knowing at her age she could risk injuring her hip in the crowded pub if she didn’t take a seat soon. She thanked us profusely, sat down to my left, and small talk ensued. Introductions were made and as soon as Sgt Bob, a real-deal, opened his mouth, his thick accent poured out like syrup.
“Oh, are you guys American?” she asked innocently enough.

“Yeah,” I answered.

“So what are you doing here?” she asked again. I’ve answered this question a million times.

“We’re Marines. We’re stationed at the embassy.” The word was out. She knew we were Marines, historically the most brainwashed, extreme type of fighting man the United States, if not the world, has ever seen in 230 years, yet she still blurted out, “I just want you to know that Canadians don’t support what you’re doing in Iraq.”

What I’m doing Iraq. How did the finger get pointed at me? And how in the hell is one decrepit old lady going to speak for the entire country? I stared at her blankly, sizing her up, as she pressed on. “George Bush is the closest thing to Hitler there ever was.” All right, she just busted out the Bush-Hitler relationship but I still didn’t have the heart to give her a brachial stun despite my three beers.

I considered a thrust to her jugular notch and replied, “Well, whatever, but old G.W., that’s what I call him when we hang out, signs my checks so I do pretty much whatever he wants.” This quick line has diffused every potentially awkward situation up to that point with a touch of humor and sarcasm, but Blaire Witch would have none of it.

“And what about Donald Rumsfeld?” she quipped. “Don’t you think he should be held accountable for all that prisoner abuse?” I resisted the urge to ask her where her bleeding heart was when American troops, the same ones that patrol Canadian shores, were being tortured in Hanoi. I wanted to ask her, while administering and eye gouge, if she held anyone accountable for Nick Berg’s death.

“No, I don’t hold Rumsfeld accountable,” I replied. You can’t hold a single man responsible for the actions of a few idiots who get out of line. If they were trained that way, only then you can start pointing fingers up.”

She would have none of it. She continued to pick and poke and prod, getting further and further under my skin with every word she hissed between ignorant teeth. I traced lazy circles in the condensation on the table with my pint glass. My jaw tightened.

“Lady, what you don’t see are Americans fighting from behind women and children. What you don’t see are Americans hiding in hospitals, schools, and mosques as they fire into anything that moves. You don’t care about the humanitarian effort that’s going on behind the fighting in Iraq every single second of every single day.”

“Well, Americans have bloated images of themselves,” she retorted.

“Yes we do. Its called national pride. I have been all over the world. Your opinion is nothing new. No one likes the big kid on the block. Maybe when you can get your tail to the Middle East and look into the eyes of the Saudi people or the Kuwaiti people or the Iraqi people, you’ll see what they’ve been living with since Saddam took over in 1979. Because you know what? I have.”

She looked at me a long time. Her eyes traced my furrowed brow to my hardened stare to my clenched teeth. She settled finally on my forearm as I gripped my glass hard enough to make my veins bulge. No longer was I relaxed and preoccupied.

“I can see this is a losing conversation,” she said with her nose in the air.

I looked directly in her eyes. “You’re right.”

“Have a good night.” She raised her glass, stood, and disappeared into the crowd.
Barry Williams was ending a great rendition of Simon and Garfunkel’s Cecilia and Bob was hollering a fourth request for Thank God I’m a Country Boy, by John Denver. Barry just smiled politely.
I drank the last of my Beer and looked for answers to tonight’s confrontation at the bottom of the glass.

But there were none. There never are.

Am I at fault...I know the answer do you?

To sum it all up..I am saying that both sides bring valid points to the ring and at some time there has to be a medium, just stop bickering and carry on. We as Humans are friends, but as nations we seem to be ememies...even in the bar?

BTW...I didnt seriously consider harming her...I threw that in there for a little humor

[edit on 29/3/05 by Risky_Bizness]

[edit on 29/3/05 by Risky_Bizness]

[edit on 29/3/05 by Risky_Bizness]

All right, she just busted out the Bush-Hitler relationship but I still didn’t have the heart to give her a brachial stun despite my three beers....

I considered a thrust to her jugular notch...

....wanted to ask her, while administering and eye gouge...

Um, yeah you sound like a big friendly bear. ;p

As to the rest of it, big deal. It's freedom of expression, if the woman wants to rail on you for some reason, she can. Obviously it bothered you, and just as obviously she was wrong to single you out and get in your face about something that you had no control over.

Until you know where this woman's pain came from, you have no right to judge her any more than she has the right to judge you.

Did she lose a family member in Iraq? A soldier or perhaps a relative who LIVED in Iraq and got blown up or something?

Until you know where she was coming from, you'll not be able to accurately figure out what her damage was.

Next time ask her "Where is this coming from? Why?".

No one likes the big kid on the block. Maybe when you can get your tail to the Middle East and look into the eyes of the Saudi people or the Kuwaiti people or the Iraqi people, you’ll see what they’ve been living with since Saddam took over in 1979. Because you know what? I have.”

And every step of the way as he murdered and gassed, your government PAID him. Up to 1988 and even past that, your government was filling his pockets with money and selling him military hardware and "dual-use" chemicals.

So your country is in fact complicit in this whole fiasco as much as you seem to think you're the redeemers. I'd say it's 50-50. Without years of US support, Saddam wouldn't have been able to do all the nasty things he did.

Billions and billions of US dollars kept Saddam on top and it took y'all to take him down.

Do a google search for "U.S. blowback" and you'll see many examples of this.



jako


ps. as much as I may disagree with you, stay safe out there, dude.

It's been that way around the world for as long as I can remember. Semper Fi Marine.

You are a voluntary member of an organization that many people see as causing wrongful harm to others. You personally may not be in Iraq or Afghanistan doing any killing, but you are certainly a representative of the group you are a member of. As such you are considered guilty by association by a large percentage of people and you won't be able to change that. So yes, you are at fault.

This is similar to how the rest of the world felt to the military and citizenry of the Axis nations during and after WWII. Even those who were involuntary members of their respective military were held accountable. The citizenry of Japan got nuked, the citizenry of Germany were slaughtered and bombed. Those who hold military positions are going to be held in a slightly more negative light though. Personally, I would not promote myself being a U.S. citizen outside the U.S. at this point because people do not change. The same negative feelings from WWII have absolutely carried over to today, but to different countries. If you want to have a more stress-free existence, avoid such confrontrations as much as possible.

And every step of the way as he murdered and gassed, your government PAID him. Up to 1988 and even past that, your government was filling his pockets with money and selling him military hardware and "dual-use" chemicals.

Im not doubting that, Ill take your advice and look it up

My point is we as Americans are pointed out overseas more than foriengers are pointed in the US.

Personnally, I don't have a problem with it, I enjoy
getting in the political ring and discussing politics and whatever else comes up.

But most other Americans do have a problem with this overseas....wether they are goverment or civilian sector.

BTW: I would never hurt anyone, I through that in for humor.

Originally posted by Risky_Bizness
My point is we as Americans are pointed out overseas more than foriengers are pointed in the US.

One thing to keep in mind is that the common american is ignorant to most political issues in countries other than their own. (present company are excluded from this generalization. most ats'ers are pretty on top of current events)

I's not a matter of respect for other nations - it's a matter of not having a damn clue.

*cough* For the record, us Canucks are still in Afghanistan.

How many Americans know anything about NAFTA, especially dealing with Canada? With the exception of ATSers, I would say that msot Americans are rather ignorant of the world outside the flag-waving, democratic bubble they wrap themselves in.

Hey, I know none of that is your fault, you're just along for the ride. But there IS a certain standard fo decorum to be upheld.

PS- if you are in Alberta, feel free to brachially stun anyone you wish.

DE

you are considered guilty by association by a large percentage of people and you won't be able to change that. So yes, you are at fault.

Ahh, I understand now....so you are saying that all people of middle eastern decent are "terrorist"?...thanks for sheeding some light on that

Personally, I would not promote myself being a U.S. citizen outside the U.S. at this point because people do not change.

It's kind of hard when your hair is short your clothes are differant and you have the infamous accent.....But yes I agree, there's just no way around it. good point

About the WWII thing...I agree, we just have to live with it.

But why do nations get angry when we mess with thier citizens that are in the US...but they allow us to be ridiculed and spat upon in thier countries?

One thing to keep in mind is that the common american is ignorant to most political issues in countries other than their own. (present company are excluded from this generalization. most ats'ers are pretty on top of current events)

I posted this topic for debate and to get answers.

I never thought of that (good answer)

With that...most non-Americans know what you stated (especially canadians and Euro's) so why do they persist that whatever club or bar Im in be turned into the O'Reilly Factor with me playing the role of Bill?

Originally posted by Risky_Bizness
With that...most non-Americans know what you stated (especially canadians and Euro's) so why do they persist that whatever club or bar Im in be turned into the O'Reilly Factor with me playing the role of Bill?

You pour that crap across our borders...and your politics affect ours. Since your politicians won't listen, I suppose you get an earful. Sorry about that. However, there are a few issues that need the resolving when it comes to NAFTA, and the American's flagrant violation thereof.

DE

BTW, Im not in Canada anymore...Ive moved on since then...
Canada is indeed a good place with great memories
Im serious, no sarcasism

You pour that crap across our borders...and your politics affect ours. Since your politicians won't listen, I suppose you get an earful. Sorry about that. However, there are a few issues that need the resolving when it comes to NAFTA, and the American's flagrant violation thereof.

If we pour our "crap" across into Canada (No arguement there) than should'nt Canadians be complaining to Canadian politicians? Not some Joe trying to enjoy his Guinness...this happens alot.

Quite clearly. You're near South Ossetia, aren't you?

how do the locals regard you?

DE

Originally posted by Frith
You are a voluntary member of an organization that many people see as causing wrongful harm to others. You personally may not be in Iraq or Afghanistan doing any killing, but you are certainly a representative of the group you are a member of. As such you are considered guilty by association by a large percentage of people and you won't be able to change that. So yes, you are at fault.

Ya know I'm not going to argue this point or even try and figure out what the assumed facts and details about it are, but I would like to point out that nothing in that statement rules out "Citizens" as also being at fault as well. Every American each and every day makes the choice to go along with the system or to oppose it. So that means anyone who is not active in "Bringing Down The Tyranny of The American Government" you are thereby supporting it. Wouldn't that make every single Tax Payer and Consumer of American Products, including other contries who trade with us also then be Guilty by Association???

The whole point being, once you institute the Guilty by Association policy, exactly where is that nice established line between the Guilty and Innocent??? Or is there even such a line at all???

Perhaps we should just admit that splitting hairs is pointless and we can either all except part of the blame and all be guilty and punished. Or we can all stop the blame game so none of us are burdened by guilt, justified or not, and start fresh from a clean slate???

Originally posted by Risky_Bizness
If we pour our "crap" across into Canada (No arguement there) than should'nt Canadians be complaining to Canadian politicians? Not some Joe trying to enjoy his Guinness...this happens alot.

Mostly because your politicians don't listen to ours, and our conservatives would sacrifice their firstborn children to get a little respect from America. So, with no outlet for the average citizen's righteous fury....well, you become a proxy.

DE

Good post Risky, Don't let that Canadian man-hater get you down...my mom lives in Montreal and she said the only thing that really unites French-Canadians is their hatred of Americans.

Quebec is having an identity crises right now, their not really sure what they stand up for and where their going next. All they know is they Hate Americans and thats sad.

keep up the good work Marine.

Maximu§

Originally posted by Risky_Bizness
I never thought of that (good answer)

Why, thank you

With that...most non-Americans know what you stated (especially canadians and Euro's) so why do they persist that whatever club or bar Im in be turned into the O'Reilly Factor with me playing the role of Bill?

Maybe they are hoping to open just one American's eyes to the world around them? (Like it or not, all americans tend to be lumped together and generalized... and the generalization is that we are fat, lazy, ignorant, and love to sue/shoot our problems away)

I really don't know the answer to this one.

Have you thought of asking to talk about another topic? I don't know about you but when i'm out for a beer the last thing i want to talk about is work... myabe you could remind them that you are not directly responsible for the white house's policy and that you don't wish to "talk shop" while not at work?

*shrug*

[edit on 29-3-2005 by negativenihil]

I think you made the right call in not losing your cool Rizky. It would have been very easy to go off on that lady but what would that have solved? We are told what those in power want us to hear as those in other countries are told what their government wants them to believe. You were there, you know that it is hell but you also know that you were able to do some good which, in the end, is all that matters.

Originally posted by mOjOm
Ya know I'm not going to argue this point or even try and figure out what the assumed facts and details about it are, but I would like to point out that nothing in that statement rules out "Citizens" as also being at fault as well. Every American each and every day makes the choice to go along with the system or to oppose it. So that means anyone who is not active in "Bringing Down The Tyranny of The American Government" you are thereby supporting it. Wouldn't that make every single Tax Payer and Consumer of American Products, including other contries who trade with us also then be Guilty by Association???

The whole point being, once you institute the Guilty by Association policy, exactly where is that nice established line between the Guilty and Innocent??? Or is there even such a line at all???

Perhaps we should just admit that splitting hairs is pointless and we can either all except part of the blame and all be guilty and punished. Or we can all stop the blame game so none of us are burdened by guilt, justified or not, and start fresh from a clean slate???

True to a degree. However I do make a distinction, as should everybody IMO, towards voluntary and involuntary members of organizations. The majority of U.S. citizens are involuntarily so by birth. I cannot find fault with involuntary military conscriptees either. Voluntarily becoming members of such organizations, if they are indeed doing wrong, would make you far more culpable. I actually have thought about the whole issue of paying taxes to feed the war and oppression machine, but being an involuntary citizen coupled with the ramifications of not paying your taxes is certainly enough to keep most...innocent enough.

Anyway, as you notice with my second paragraph of my original post I do place blame upon non-military citizenry. Guilt by association is a strong force on this planet. One that had led to many people's deaths and oppression and it cannot be overlooked.

Originally posted by DeusEx
Quite clearly. You're near South Ossetia, aren't you?

how do the locals regard you?

DE

How could you know that, my profile right? U2U me if its some other answer..please

Hmm the locals...well here it's a mixed crowd, Most of them really have no reaction at all...the US is a large influence here with the new pipeline being buid and all the Jobs we have building the New Embassy. But when I work my toward Turkey the people get more "anti-US" (bad choice of words, but thats all I can think of).

As for the Russian populas here...Need I say more...think Cold War and you have the answer