The Gods of Giza

a reply to: Byrd

"You'll find (if you look it up) that this is a modern idea and not an ancient one. The mathēmatikoi had no real interest in the Giza pyramids other than as a representation of one of the Platonic Solids."

So you don't believe Pythagoras ever actually communicated with a mystic society based in Egypt traveling there and being denied entry into an inner circle?

theijtema.com...

As with most of your previous rebuttable presumptions, I can really only answer is that so?
People like Isaac Koi are snoring we are in the ATS dark ages now, OP appears to have just sent us out to see if the ravens still circle the mountain.

Glad Harte had a chuckle though.

originally posted by: fromunclexcommunicate
a reply to: Byrd

"You'll find (if you look it up) that this is a modern idea and not an ancient one. The mathēmatikoi had no real interest in the Giza pyramids other than as a representation of one of the Platonic Solids."

So you don't believe Pythagoras ever actually communicated with a mystic society based in Egypt traveling there and being denied entry into an inner circle?

theijtema.com...

Notice that the article doesn't include any citations.

Notice that it quotes Pythagoras... although if you look for translations of Pythagoras you will find that none of his writings (or copies of them) have survived. That should be the first clue that this information was made up.

When you go hunting down the "who said he went to Egypt" question, you get writers from 300 BC onward (150 years after his death) saying that he was taught in Egypt or in Persia by the magi or in India or even studied Jewish mysticism where he was taught in the temples. The ancient writer Iamblicus claims that Pythagoras got his training from the druids.

All of them say it equally authoritatively, and include little sketches of his life... tales that contradict with tales that others wrote about him.

The story of his being initially rejected from the Egyptian schools is equally fishy. Egyptian religion was not organized like Greek and there were no mystery schools until the Greeks brought them in at the time of Alexander. The "breathing cycles" is actually Hindu and not Egyptian.

And finally the (unattributed) statement by Pythagoras "“You are not allowing Pythagoras in. I am a different man; I am reborn. You were right and I was wrong, because then, my whole standpoint was intellectual. Through this purification, my center of being has changed. From the intellect it has come down to the heart. Now I can feel things. Before this training I could only understand through the intellect, through the head. Now I can feel. Now truth is not a concept to me, but life. It is not going to be a philosophy, but rather, an experience – existential.” -- that's a plain contradiction to what Pythagoras believed.

He believed in logic and the intellect (which is why his followers and the schools he founded taught logic and mathematics). If they'd believed in breathing and intuition and emotion, this would have shown up in the books and writings of his followers and in the teachings (what survives) of the schools.

As with most of your previous rebuttable presumptions, I can really only answer is that so?

See above. If you disagree, find the most ancient authors (Greek, Roman) who are the source for the Egyptian claim and quote them here (and link to their book and page, as is proper.) And likewise find a good ancient source on a Greek style mystery school at Diospolis.

So far, all you've done is link a modern site with a story that isn't even one that the ancient authors told (if you happened to be very expert with googling, you would find that the "40 days" thing arrived on the Internet about 2007 from a now defuncet "pay money and join our mystery school" (called the "9 Ways") site that also sold sacred drums, "eagle bone" whistles, etc, etc.) You'd also find that the REAL source of this quote is the channeled book, "The Book of Secrets" by (alias) Osho, which was published in 1974.

I realize that's about 50 years ago, which would make it an antique... but it ain't ancient. Trust me on this.




Our motto is "deny ignorance" and that means "chase down the facts... not make them up."

a reply to: Byrd

"Much of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament may have been assembled in the 5th century BCE."
Is the above a true statement?
Because if it is the 40 day fasting thing was reported in the old testament.
A well traveled man with high math aptitude like Pythagoras would not have passed up a chance at the Great pyramid.
There are more ways to embellish the story than we can imagine, but they were using the 40 days as a key ~500 BCE when the Pythagoras mathematical legend was being written into history.

originally posted by: fromunclexcommunicate
a reply to: Byrd

"Much of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament may have been assembled in the 5th century BCE."
Is the above a true statement?
Because if it is the 40 day fasting thing was reported in the old testament.

You accurately caught that the 40 days was a Biblical reference... you didn't catch that it was further proof that the story is a lie.

That's from the NEW Testament, Matthew 4:1-11 (also Luke 4:2, Mark 1:13)

The New Testament is about Jesus and wasn't written until around 600 years after Pythagoras died.

A well traveled man with high math aptitude like Pythagoras would not have passed up a chance at the Great pyramid. There are more ways to embellish the story than we can imagine, but they were using the 40 days as a key ~500 BCE when the Pythagoras mathematical legend was being written into history.

We don't know if and where he traveled. Travel was difficult in those days and his home city-state (Samos) was in the middle of the Lelantine War. Samos sent forces to fight the Persians.

If you care to look it up you'll find that the Persians under Cambyses conquered Egypt about the time that Pythagoras turned 25 and held onto it until the Macedonians came along around 330 BC and took it from them. Pythagoras' home town was still at war with Cambyses at that time. As a member of an enemy state, the Persians would not have welcomed him anywhere in their territories.

We DO know that Pythagoras went the other way -- away from the fighting -- because he leaves Samos around 530 BC (a number of ancient sources confirm) and ends up in Italy. This would be at the time when Cambysis was finishing up his conquest of Egypt and on his way to becoming the Persian pharaoh of Egypt.

He goes to Croton, to a Greek colony in Italy (in the "boot heel" part of it) where he founds his school and seems to have stayed thereabouts until his death. People traveled to see him. Not the other way around.

a reply to: Byrd

The Pythagoras legend might just be reincorporating prior historical thought under the Pythagorean name.
For example the Plimpton 322 Babylonian clay tablet was dated from 1800 BC and looks suspiciously like part of a proof for Pythagorean triples.

en.wikipedia.org...

I doubt Pythagoras missed the navigational math attributed to John the baptist in the New Testament.
There would be no doubts among inner circle peers that this came from Giza.
Pythagoras incorporated Jewish beliefs into his own philosophy so maybe he was just never portrayed naked by custom.

originally posted by: fromunclexcommunicate
a reply to: Byrd

The Pythagoras legend might just be reincorporating prior historical thought under the Pythagorean name.
For example the Plimpton 322 Babylonian clay tablet was dated from 1800 BC and looks suspiciously like part of a proof for Pythagorean triples.

en.wikipedia.org...

These types of triplets are common, and there's good evidence that the Pythagorean theorem was known a thousand years before Pythagoras. We give the formula his name because of the Greek writers Cicero and Plutarch -- and it was widely known by Pythagoras' name in Greece (so was likely taught in his school.)

I doubt Pythagoras missed the navigational math attributed to John the baptist in the New Testament.

Okay... you got me with this one. I can't find any reference to John the Baptist using navigational math in the New Testament (which I've read pretty thoroughly.)

Can you please give me a link to this?

There would be no doubts among inner circle peers that this came from Giza.

Actually, I think that everyone would doubt that Pythagoras got any of this from Giza. The Egyptians calculated things by "rise over run" (i.e. what we'd call "slope"... a rise of 5 feet for every 8 feet in length, for instance.)

Pythagoras incorporated Jewish beliefs into his own philosophy so maybe he was just never portrayed naked by custom.

Which Jewish beliefs did he incorporate?



subnote: Linking the Stanford Philosophy Encyclopedia entry on Pythagoras for my own reference in responding later on.