Question about how mRNA vaccines work

Ok so I was recently watching some interviews with doctors who were speaking about how the vaccines work, and one of them mentioned that the mRNA vaccines do something to suppress your innate immune system. They purposely did this because otherwise our immune system would mistake our own cells for infected viral cells and start attacking them. Our immune system attacks and kills not only foreign bodies but it will also attack our own cells if they have been hijacked by a virus, or they have become cancerous, etc.

From what I understand about how the mRNA vaccines work, they cause our cells to convert RNA from the vaccine into a coronavirus spike protein. This essentially means that our cells start producing a spike protein, and our immune system could easily mistake those cells for infected cells and start attacking them. In fact it seems probable this is why most of the animals involved in the trials died. But they obviously wouldn't give a vaccine to humans if it caused all the animals in the trials to die.

So they clearly must have done something to suppress or trick our immune system. Considering we now have doctors claiming there are severe immunodeficiency related side-effects to the Covid-19 vaccines, this would seem like an extremely import issue and something that we need to clearly understand. I find it mind boggling that so many people are so willing to inject themselves with something they barely understand. Politicians certainly aren't the most scientifically literate people either.

There's just no way I can trust a vaccine which manipulates the machinery of my cells at such a low level. I wouldn't even trust the smartest guy on Earth because I can grasp the complexity involved and the sheer scope of what we don't fully understand about Human biology. As a programmer I consider the natural biological programming of my cells to be a sacred thing, and I'm not going to let other humans start to manipulate that programming with their mRNA experimentation...

a reply to: ChaoticOrder
No 'off switch'

Rainbows
Jane

a reply to: angelchemuel

Your cells will stop producing the spike protein after a week or two I believe, after all the RNA disintegrates. I'm just wondering exactly how the mRNA vaccines trick our immune system into ignoring cells which are producing part of a virus (the spike protein), yet it still trains the immune system to attack that specific part of the virus.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

It can instantly be translated by host cell ribosomes. As the polyA tail shortens on the mRNA strand, it will be broken down. There is very much an off switch with mRNA. They could be referring to double stranded RNA intermediates that indicates viral infection to pathogen recognition receptors in TLRs. Or even that a positive sense RNA genome from a coronavirus can be treated as mRNA without transcription by host cell ribosomes.

It is modified, supposed to be anchored in cell membranes. Not released, or if it is released it will undergo endocytosis and be absorbed and presented as MHC complexes. This is actually a good thing because you will get a better rounded immune response through MHC II - external antigen and CD4 or T helper cells. Plus MHC I endogenous or internally produced proteins signifying a compromised cell and CD8 or cytotoxic T cell response.

A potential problem could be exosome release with spike protein anchored into that. That could cause issues. There could also be antibody and antigen target generation against host signaling like we see with clotting factors. I’m curious as to the cause because there very much is an issue with complement and innate signaling in some that receive the vaccines. It’s definitely not a T cell issue or there would be millions dead or dying right now. It ain’t happening, interesting that many want it to and love stressing about it.

Many of the “videos” confuse quite a bit between spike protein present in a pseudo virus or other experiment with that in the vaccine or actual coronavirus. They are also combining aspects that don’t make sense to get attention and scare people. It’s not going to wipe T cells and I will gladly compare notes in a year or two to support that aspect. Those animal studies are often used as reference but they don’t apply because of targets and models used early in research that don’t apply here except that they gave us a better understanding of the processes.

a reply to: TheAMEDDDoc

In case it wasn't clear, I'm not a microbiologist. Try explaining things in simpler terms. As for your statement about T cells and millions dying... well it wouldn't surprise me if millions are dying of cancers or other issues which their immune system is now incapable of defending them against. I know one person close to me with cancer that instantly declined after the vaccine, and I've heard countless similar stories. The simple fact is we simply don't have enough long term data to really know the truth, so it's completely insane to force these vaccines on people.

Those animal studies are often used as reference but they don’t apply because of targets and models used early in research that don’t apply here except that they gave us a better understanding of the processes.

What is this sentence even supposed to mean, seems like gibberish deflection.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Basically, just because something worked a certain way early on in the research doesn't mean it's still that way. Those results were from early, early versions of mRNA trial vaccines, but obviously they were unworkable and for obvious reasons. What used to be that way was modified through various levels of the research process so the end result is different as is the product itself.

I guess an analogy, probably poor because I'm not a micro, I've just been married to one and had to try to understand him for 20+ years, is that the version that killed off the animals in testing is the computer that fills the room and now we have computers (cell phones) that fit in the palms of our hands. They're the same basic idea, but we've made so many improvements over time and with advances that we no longer need an entire room.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

No it isn’t. They focused on other structurally conserved sites that are more likely to generate non neutralizing antibodies. This gives the virus another way into cells, like antigen presenting cells, rather than only relying on receptor binding. Because the antibodies are non neutralizing, they just bind virions without stopping it’s ability to release its genome through endosome fusion when it’s taken into these cells. Coronavirus genomes are instantly infectious and treated as mRNA upon entry by ribosomes and they are replicated to generate more. This is one of the confusing aspects used by many of these videos in comparing mRNA with SARS-CoV-2.

One example is focusing on N protein rather than S protein. Not a good idea here since it could be non neutralizing but it’s an easier target so they started there. Coronaviruses do not attenuate like other RNA viruses. It’s slower because they have error correction proteins in the polymerase that copies new RNA transcripts from the template transcripts. This helps maintain their genome because it is larger. So I can see why they would try some of these targets. Especially since the virus should be more stable in these structures.

People mention all these previous studies, make statements, and then don’t understand them? Curious. Also that the goalposts always seem to shift when the arguments break down. mRNA is very short lived, those reactions are going to be days or weeks, you won’t see issues years later. I don’t know why people are having so many issues with this.

It is insane to force any medication on anyone, I agree with you there and I don’t support forced vaccinations. It’s illegal. Or at least it used to be.

Also, according to the data I've seen from doctors, the immune system of vaccinated people does seem to go back to normal after a few weeks, so it definitely seems to be a purposeful function of the vaccine. But it still seems quite dangerous to lower your immune system to such an extent even for a small period of time, especially for those people with pre-existing conditions.

a reply to: ketsuko

Yes, but my point is those early versions killed the animals for a very specific reason, and they obviously did something very specific to prevent that happening in the final version of the vaccine.

a reply to: TheAMEDDDoc

So what you're saying is, those early vaccines didn't work so didn't cause an antibody response in the animals, so Covid-19 ended up killing them? If so I'm not really buying that, a small fraction of the animals would have died in that case. The vaccine clearly killed them, or their immune response to the vaccine.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: ketsuko

Yes, but my point is those early versions killed the animals for a very specific reason, and they obviously did something very specific to prevent that happening in the final version of the vaccine.

It's not unusual in early animal testing for there to be high numbers of animal deaths for various reasons. Sometimes, they can fix that simply by adjusting potency of the vaccine or something like that, but other times, it's just that the vaccine itself has something that needs to be changed and that can be harder.

But that's the reason why they still do animal testing. As harsh as it seems, better than to discover what's not working than to figure it out in early trials.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
Also, according to the data I've seen from doctors, the immune system of vaccinated people does seem to go back to normal after a few weeks, so it definitely seems to be a purposeful function of the vaccine. But it still seems quite dangerous to lower your immune system to such an extent even for a small period of time, especially for those people with pre-existing conditions.

I think that maybe you're a little confused. Or that you are trying to confuse other people in order to scare them into not taking the vax.

The vax doesn't lower your immune system. It is designed so that certain components won't be recognized as being hostile by your body so that they won't be attacked and destroyed before the mRNA is delivered.

Think of it like having a stealth coating, rather than cutting the wires to the alarm system.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: TheAMEDDDoc

So what you're saying is, those early vaccines didn't work so didn't cause an antibody response in the animals, so Covid-19 ended up killing them? If so I'm not really buying that, a small fraction of the animals would have died in that case. The vaccine clearly killed them, or their immune response to the vaccine.

The early versions weren't for Covid, they were made a decade ago.

a reply to: AaarghZombies

It may in the early days or first week or so, I don't know. It could be one of the reasons why they say you aren't fully vaxxed until at least two weeks have passed.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: angelchemuel

Your cells will stop producing the spike protein after a week or two I believe, after all the RNA disintegrates. I'm just wondering exactly how the mRNA vaccines trick our immune system into ignoring cells which are producing part of a virus (the spike protein), yet it still trains the immune system to attack that specific part of the virus.

The component carrying the mRNA are made of substances that you're body doesn't recognize as being dangerous. So they aren't attacked. It's like they're wearing a disguise.

Once the mRNA is delivered your cells start producing the spike protein. The spike protein isn't wearing the disguise so it's spotted and attacked.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: AaarghZombies

It may in the early days or first week or so, I don't know. It could be one of the reasons why they say you aren't fully vaxxed until at least two weeks have passed.

It just takes a little time for your body to produce sufficient antibodies for you to be considered fully vaxxed. You're body takes a little while to get warmed up to a new threat.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

No they did and it worked very well. But then they challenged the animals and the antibodies that were used ended up helping the virus rather than stop it. Wiping the animals in the study. This was because of a bad target and it happens in vaccine development and medication development.

Think of ACE2 receptor as a door, the spike protein is a key to the door, similar in structure to the ACE2 molecule. ACE2 protects tissue during inflammation, so stimulating it will suppress it eventually and lead to stress responses. Damaging tissue. You stimulate ACE2 pathways for ACE will be activated to counteract or ACE2 may be regulated to prevent over expression.

There is also the virus aspect. The virus is the genome, the virion is the shell protecting and containing the genome. Virus is entirely dependent on its environment because it hijacks host protein and gene production by forcing the cell into what is called S phase. This is like an overclocked cell stage that facilitates energy intensive genome replication and protein production. This is what ivermectin blocks very well during in vitro studies.

If our immune responses think that the virus is neutralized by antibody, antigen presenting cells will take up the antibody bound virus and attempt to break it down. Coronavirus is trained to release its genes as endosome pH decreases inside the cell. Antibodies should prevent this but it doesn’t happen. If the virions or proteins can be broken down the antigen presenting cells then present pieces of viral antigen to naive T cells in lymph nodes and the thymus and B cells in the spleen. This trains them to produce new antigen targets in their receptors and updates the targets to kill pathogens.

With non neutralizing antibodies this doesn’t happen. The virus reproduces in the antigen presenting cells and other cells. So there is no update to antigen targets, well there is eventually but it’s too late at the end. It takes awhile because viruses can block the cells from identifying that a virus is replicating. EndoU is one protein that does this and hides viral RNA intermediates from the cell. So they don’t know until it’s too late and then they just release everything at once and overwhelm the host. They can even release immature T and B cells or other poorly developed granulocytes with the mature cells. Granulocytes release signals and neutrophils basically create oxidative bursts that digest pathogens. Too much release can be very bad for the host because it causes self sustaining inflammatory cascades if not regulated, even against healthy cell targets.

This can really mess with signaling too and cause even more problems.

a reply to: AaarghZombies

The vax doesn't lower your immune system. It is designed so that certain components won't be recognized as being hostile by your body so that they won't be attacked and destroyed before the mRNA is delivered.

Ah... so there is something in it designed to trick our immune system. They may claim it has no effect on the other components of the immune system, but based on the blood results being shown by some doctors it seems there are more far-reaching consequences. Trying to program the human body is like trying to write the most complex algorithm without even knowing the full language or even the full functionality of each command in the language. Humans can't even write bug free computer code most of the time and we created those languages our self.

The early versions weren't for Covid, they were made a decade ago.

They still used the same underlying mRNA technology, so my main point is still completely valid; they must have found some way to trick our immune system. It also seems pretty suspicious that they never before achieved a vaccine efficacy above 30 to 40% for any coronavirus, yet they somehow magically achieved a 95% efficacy for Covid-19 vaccines. There is so much the public clearly doesn't understand about how these vaccines function, we're just supposed to trust in the technology. Sorry but I'll just stick to the natural programing of my immune system which was developed over billions of years.

a reply to: TheAMEDDDoc

No they did and it worked very well. But then they challenged the animals and the antibodies that were used ended up helping the virus rather than stop it. Wiping the animals in the study. This was because of a bad target and it happens in vaccine development and medication development.

Oh, you're talking about antibody-dependent enhancement. So the animals did die of Covid-19 because the antibodies failed and actually helped SARS-CoV-2 infect their cells. I still feel like a heightened immune response or lack of immune response may have played some role in their deaths, but who knows. None of this really addresses the main question though, which is how did they trick the immune system into allowing cells to become spike protein factories.