ATS: Florida State Law Enforcement Stopped By Local Police From Taking Schiavo

My new comments in italics.

Originally posted by rapier28

Do you know how many people are pulled every year across the world?
Not sure about the world but there were 3,221 (depending on your definition of "pulled") in the states in 2004.

I don't remember people like you and Congress making a fuss over men protesting they innocence and then being executed.
Then you're saying that you only watch the news and don't pay attention unless it gets media coverage.

I don't remember you making a fuss over Congress allowing hospitals to pull the plug on people that can't pay.
You're absolutely right. We don't have a good medical care system in our country. I hope that changes and I hope I can help change it.

EVERY SINGLE COURT DOCTOR THAT TREATED HER SAID THAT SHE HAS NO CHANCE OF RECOVERY.
The majority of people who recover from severe head trauma "have no chance of recovery". This might be due to the fact that keeping people on life support costs hospitals about 120 billion dollars a year in lost income. (yes hospitals make income too)

Terry is alive, conscious and aware. Do not ever think she is not. She can currently sit up, swollow, and show facial expression. She is not on life support, she ONLY has a feeding tube. I'm sure many things she does are automatic, but I'm equally sure that shifting herself in her bed because she's uncomfortable is not one of them.

I'am sorry but that is just false.

If she can swallow then why is she being fed by a tube? LOGIC.

It isn't my fault that you don't know how a feeding tube works, but I can see how you'd make that mistake. I'm afraid that most medicine isn't quite that simple. Most patients who use feeding tubes do have the ability to swollow. Without the ability to swollow, a feeding tube can cause damage to the trachea and esophagus. In most cases, the tube doesn't deposit the gelatinous foods directly into the stomach, but rather just below the trachea in order to minimize damage to the stenosing web and adenocacina of the esophagus. Also, there is a slight chance of hurting the left lobe of the liver. In Terri Shiavo's case, they feed her this way simply to avoid drowning her as she can not masticate or manipulate the food in her mouth with her tongue. I'm sorry if I've offended you, I was a little caught up, but please don't make claims like that without at least trying to research the topic first. I'm sure the information is available to you somewhere, and I'm sure that you're very good at logic but I do know quite a bit of medicine and would not intentionally lead any of you astray.

I have never heard of whatever web site it is that you're talking about. I get my information about her diagnosis from the two of the doctors at the VA where I work. They get their information from records and statements at Humana Hospital. There is a movement started by the nurse unions of Los Angeles to force hospitals to change their policies on the number of nursing hours dedicated to brain damaged patients as a direct result over the controversy of the things being claimed by the doctors and nurses at Humana.

Humana Hospital isn't exactly the most partial of sources that you can use. Try all the court-appointed doctors and leading neurologists across the world.

I don't have to have a background in medicine (even though i have a background in biology), i can simply read what the leading neurologists have said.

Then I would ask you if you've read ALL of what Terri's neurologists have said and understood it. I'm not a neurologist, but I've taken neurology, and neuropathology (an 8 and 12 unit class) and I can tell you what I know about which parts of Terri's brain MUST still be active in order to do the things that she can still do. First of all, all parts of the automatic nervous system, (top to bottom) the pons, the medulla, and the first thorasic through fourth lumbar vertibrae. They control (from top to bottom) the ciliary ganglion (parts of the nerves which extend to the eye), lacrimal glands and ganglion. Lacrimal, submandibular, sublingual, and parotid glands and their ganlion and the otic ganglion (all parts of the eye). There's a list of nerves which is quite extensive, you'll pardon me if I don't list them I hope. The bronchus, lung and heart. Attatched to the same nerve (the vagus), you have the liver, gallbladder, bile duct and spleen. Adrenal gland cortex (everywhere). Down further you have the stomach, pancreas and kidney. Then you have the bladder, prostate (female counterpart uterus), the urethra and testes (female counterpart ovaries).

Terry Shiavo exhibits all of these functions as normally as possible for a bed ridden person. Now, upper brain functions that she still has (which are severly damaged but still working) exist in AT LEAST the precentral gyrus, primary motor area, primary somatosensory area, central sulcus, secondary somatrosensory area and (at least in the first three years of her hospitalization the Boca's motor speech area) of the perietal lobe. She showed signs of activity in the secondary (and largest) visual areas of the frontal lobe. And she showed signs of activity in the primary and seconday auditory areas of the temporal and parietal lobes and of the corpus callosum. According to the various brain-imaging techniques applied to Terri (and according to her neurologists) she showed activity in these areas when presented with specific stimulus used to determine upper brain function of brain damaged patients.

What the neurologists say are "automatic reactions" is only a matter of opinion based on unproven theories and if want to be totally realistic ALL brain activity is a set of very complex "automatic reactions" unless you believe a spirit or soul is what ultimately controls the mind and then that would be a religious statement not a medical one.

It's about Congress and Jeb Bush overturning Judicial rulings and usurping they power.

What you've said here is true, but I disagree that Michael Shiavo (or anyone else) has any legal claim to decide Terri should die because she didn't leave a living trust listing him as primary custodian and because I don't believe Terri is in a state where her life isn't worth saving.... even if she never made any kind of recovery, but please understand that however small, there IS a chance that she will recover.

What Bush was doing was "erring on the side of life" which is what doctors are SUPPOSED to do but these are VERY sticky circumstances for which I wouldn't want to be held liable. The president has the authority to pardon a convicted murderer sentenced to death, why shouldn't he be able to pardon Terri? I know that's a bad analogy but the fact is that a JUDGE made the decision to allow Terri's feeding tube to be removed (did you know another ordered it back in? Twice!) You must know by watching the news that Terri's had her feeding tube legally removed and replaced before. It can legally be replaced now. Indeed under most circumstances I wouldn't want congress, governors or presidents to intervene with local authorities but there ARE rights Americans have no matter which state they live in and I think the right to live is one of them

ServoHahn
and is awarded 1.5 million dollars to help treat his wife (not spending it on her) and then says that he wants her to die because he loves her!?

Do you know that the Husband was offered multi-million deals to relinquish custody? So please don't put money into this argument.

This is also true but money IS an issue. You obviously don't believe that Michael has ulterior motives (but I do), and he DID take 1.5 mil for himself when it was supposed to be spent on Terri.

Also, these neurologists aren't god. Medicine is almost always a case of opinion, that's why in legal matters, both sides can have doctors that say separate things. The courts should know this.

[edit on 26-3-2005 by rapier28]

-S



[edit on 27-3-2005 by ServoHahn]

Originally posted by Nygdan
I also see in the news that her parents want her to receive communion for easter. More idiocy. First off, its a mortal sin in catholocism to receive communion when you have missed it for any lenght of time, without going to confession. Secondly, if they feed her bread she will die. If they pour wine down her throat, she will drown.

Also, these parents have gone beyond merely being distraught and thus irrationalized parents. They've actually preposterously claimed that she told them she wants to live. Thats not physically possible. They are literally, liars. This is getting way out of hand.

Actually, there are two sworn statements regarding the fact that Terri attempted to speak and they are not from her parents.

Now, to clarify your statement about communion being a mortal sin in this case, you have misrepresented that entirely. It is a sin to receive communion if you had deliberately missed mass when you were able bodied to go. Then, you must confess before receiving. The sick and dying are always administered communion, often as part of the last rites and even if the person is totally unconscious. However, there are homebound people and those in the hospital that are provided communion all along, no matter what their condition. It also won't kill her since all it takes is a drop of wine (the wine being optional as to whether or not you have received) and a speck of the bread, no matter how small. That suffices. I can see no rationale for why a request for communion on Easter Sunday should be denied. Please don't comment on the Catholic Church's beliefs if you don't know what they are. This IS a travesty to deny the faithful communion and can obviously only be understood if you acknowledge the importance of the sacrament.

Taking her religious rights a step further, it is never acceptable in in Catholic teaching to remove sustanance from a person no matter what their condition, if that is the difference (especially the only difference) between life and death. Terri is Catholic, her family is Catholic, and I even thought her husband was Cahtolic, but I must be wrong on that last one. this has been clarified by the Vatican long before the Terri situation.

As for those of you who are so certain Terri is brain dead to the point she feels no pain, then I wonder why:

hospice workers began giving morphine to Schiavo to ease pain brought on by her body's failure.

start.earthlink.net.../4244ec50_3ca6_15526200503261967262583






[edit on 3/27/2005 by Relentless]

Oh yes, relentless. Some people only get it if the news said it first. I wonder why people put so much stock in the news and not in their own abilities? But I guess that's a topic for a different thread. I read earthlink news too but I must have missed that one.

Rapier, here is a list of actual affidavits and several sites you can read them from. Forget what the news has said and make your own decision.
-S

[edit on 27-3-2005 by ServoHahn]

Originally posted by djohnsto77
I don't see how this could happen. All local police authorities derive from and are subservient to the State government. They should have absolutely no power to stop State police.

The local police were all "hand picked" to murder this poor woman. There would have been a "firefight" to save her from this insanity. The decision was made to "let" her die rather than several police in a gunbattle.

America has just wittnessed a takeover by the Black robed tyrany of the courts. Bush's should have acted to save Terri and stop this evil. Thousnads will soon die similar deaths just like the sick and handicapped did in Germany due to the "law" of the Nazi's.

Originally posted by ServoHahn
Oh yes, relentless. Some people only get it if the news said it first. I wonder why people put so much stock in the news and not in their own abilities? But I guess that's a topic for a different thread. I read earthlink news too but I must have missed that one.

Rapier, here is a list of actual affidavits and several sites you can read them from. Forget what the news has said and make your own decision.
-S

[edit on 27-3-2005 by ServoHahn]

K, no worries Servo, i will take a look.

But just to clarify, i'am actually an Aussie and the only information i have on the case is the news.

Originally posted by DrHoracid

America has just wittnessed a takeover by the Black robed tyrany of the courts.

This is called the RULE OF LAW. Its supposed to be one of the things separating USA from any old dictatorship.

I guess you would rather have a "man of moral" (a priest) dictate all decisions based on a holly script (the bible)?

This is how Iran works mate. Are you suggesting the US follow their example?

Originally posted by DrHoracid
The local police were all "hand picked" to murder this poor woman. There would have been a "firefight" to save her from this insanity. The decision was made to "let" her die rather than several police in a gunbattle.

Oh just got the Bork book did we? Funny, When the Judges don't rule our way they become "activist" or my favorite "Guerrillas with a black robe". Funny Dr. with your stance above are you willing to risk a firefight to "rescue" what is basically a hollow shell?

How exactly was this hand picked detachment supposed to carry out this murder? Even for you this sounds like desperation induced bombasticity or DIB as I shall henceforth dub it.

So aside from fanatical flag waving, and ????? statements, what else do you have?

Oh and don't forget the DIB's either

Originally posted by gekko
I guess you would rather have a "man of moral" (a priest) dictate all decisions based on a holly script (the bible)?

This is how Iran works mate. Are you suggesting the US follow their example?

Yes, I beleive that that is what the DH is saying. I am basing this on his previous bombastic comments in other threads. However, no doubt he and others would like to head in this direction:

“How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo-Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, "Yes, they are."
Pat Robertson In His Book “The New World Order”


As the above shows, as long as the thorcracy is Judeo-Christian its okay :shk: Thats was taken from my OP/ED Caveat Emptor: The Selling of The GOP's Soul To The Religious Right.

Mark my words, the Religious Right may have overplayed thier hand and this may be the Zenith of thier power

Disgusting, the throng of protesters outside the hospice have prevented a girl from being there when her grandfather died :shk:

Jennifer Johnson, barefoot and in her pajamas, ran to her grandfather's bedside once a hospice worker said his death was moments away. She got there — one minute too late. Johnson said the chaos outside the hospice where Terri Schiavo is dying kept her from saying goodbye.
Protestors

Mark my words, the Religious Right may have overplayed thier hand and this may be the Zenith of thier power

We can always hope...

It's pretty stunning how some people ignore everything that doesn't suit their view.

Someone they might have heard about once asked; "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?"

So much for denying ignorance.

(Edit: Clarification)

[edit on 27/3/05 by gekko]

Originally posted by gekko

Originally posted by DrHoracid

America has just wittnessed a takeover by the Black robed tyrany of the courts.

This is called the RULE OF LAW. Its supposed to be one of the things separating USA from any old dictatorship.

...

This is how Iran works mate. Are you suggesting the US follow their example?

True, but doesn't the government have an obligation to act morally? The judge could easily have ruled in the favor of Terri's family and there would have been much less controversy and much less heartache.
-S

Originally posted by rapier28

K, no worries Servo, i will take a look.

But just to clarify, i'am actually an Aussie and the only information i have on the case is the news.

Sorry. I guess you would only have news to go on... I'm supprised it's even news in Australia. What did you think about the doctors' affidavits?
-S

[edit on 27-3-2005 by ServoHahn]

Originally posted by gekko
This is called the RULE OF LAW. Its supposed to be one of the things separating USA from any old dictatorship.

The Nazi Germans ruled that "death by starvation" was legal, as long as those being executed didn't fit the perfect profile of the state. Just because a ruling is legal doesn't make it moral. When the judicial branch begins giving "orders of execution" against those who have never been convicted of a crime, then Nazism has crept in. This is a slippery slope.

Valid point, but in that case you should blame the lawmakers, not the judges for any wrongdoing.

The courts are supposed to follow the guidelines put up by the government in the shape of laws. The politicians are free to change any law they want, but they can not, and should not interfere with the laws being followed.

A judge can not, and should not look away from the text of the law. However emotional the issue might be.

When the judicial branch begins giving "orders of execution" against those who have never been convicted of a crime, then Nazism has crept in. This is a slippery slope.

IMHO, giving orders to execute ANYONE, criminals or not, is already racing down that slippery slope. Barbaric.

But as long as it's your chosen law, who am I to tell you what you can and can not do?

Originally posted by ServoHahn

Originally posted by rapier28

K, no worries Servo, i will take a look.

But just to clarify, i'am actually an Aussie and the only information i have on the case is the news.

Sorry. I guess you would only have news to go on... I'm supprised it's even news in Australia. What did you think about the doctors' affidavits?
-S

[edit on 27-3-2005 by ServoHahn]

Hah, everything from the U.S is news in Aus.

After all, you don't called a deputy sheriff for nothing.

I believe the killing of an innocent disabled woman is outrageous. I can not believe for the life of me how so many people could have supported this action. They were just going on Michael's hearsay words. A man who could have caused Terri's collapse in the first place. Michael used most of Terri's money for lawyers to make sure she dies, instead of rehab and medical care. Terri was neglected for many years by this man. Terri was not brain dead. I strongly believe Terri could have been rehabilitated even to the point when she could have eaten on her own and talked. Terri was never given a chance. She was held captive by Michael and deteriorated. Under his *lack of care* Terri got infections and was denied antibotics. She never had her teeth cleaned and lost several due to this neglect. Yet, the public seems to have supported Michael. If this was due to political viewpoints that's really sad. If this was such a loving husband why did he start a life with another woman and have kids? Why didn't he just divorce Terri and let her parents care for her? I believe if he did Terri would have recovered somewhat and testified against him in court. Michael is probably breathing a sigh of relief now.
hearsay >noun information which cannot be adequately substantiated;
and Terri dies.....and the people say,"She was brain dead." How are you going to feel if Michael didn't dot all his i's and cross all his t's? What if they find out later that Michael was the cause of Terri's collapse? How are you going to feel when Terri was denied just a *little bit* more time? Even cold-blooded killers receive stays of execution, which this innocent disabled woman was denied.

MountainStar, you really need to get your info from somewhere other than the save Terri websites.

Does it not concern you that a sitting Governor tried to circumvent a legal order for political and religious reasons?

The parents supported by religious groups such as Randall Terry (Remember this guy? the terrorist that ran Operation Rescue???) have done a fantastic job of vilifying her husband. Beyond that, it is his right to determine medical care for his wife. Thats part of that covenant of marriage that people seem so worked up about they want to change the constitution.

Originally posted by FredT
MountainStar, you really need to get your info from somewhere other than the save Terri websites.

Does it not concern you that a sitting Governor tried to circumvent a legal order for political and religious reasons?

Fred, you're absolutely right to be outraged that Jeb tried to interfere, BUT Terri did receive what was equivalent to a death sentence. I want you to know that I haven't been to any save Terri websites unless you count this which could be considered a "Save Terri Schiavo" website simply because it contains many legal, sworn affidavits from Michael and Terri's doctors and neurologists (including several doctors who went in expecting to see a woman in a PVS and changing their personal diagnoses once they witnessed Terri's semi-conscious state), and very recent videos that have been taken... videos which only record what happened and do not contort the facts. If you read these documents, you will realize that Terri has been incorrectly portrayed by the media and all of the "who said whats" have been misrepresented as well.

Now, you've chastised MountainStar for getting his information from save Terri Shiavo websites but I have to wonder whether you get your information from the media. I know that you're very active on this board so you must know that the news will give you a GOOD story over a TRUE story. Basically, you get a bunch of things taken out of context and when you look at the same interviews and statements which the news sources have quoted you realize that the people involved have been sorely misrepresented.

I'm not accusing you of wanting Terri to die, you're simply pointing out the hypocrisy of everyone making such a big deal out of this when it's perfectly legal and in most other circumstances there would be outrage that Jeb and his posse DID interfere as opposed to outrage what he wasn't allowed to interfere. HOWEVER, I've been trying to make the point that the judge had no legal say in the matter and that patients who are in a semi-conscious state (a few steps up from vegetative) must legally refuse treatment and perish of their own free will.

I would urge you to read the testimonies and view the recent videos which all but PROVE that Terri is still self aware and capable of cognitive thought. I am extremely upset with the doctors who maintain that Terri is in a vegetative state because there are several symptoms (or necessities) which need to be present in order to make a PVS diagnosis which Terri very obviously lacks.

I'm not a doctor yet but I've been working my butt off for the past three and a half years (and hopefully I'm half way there), and I DO know medical ethics... though ethics are sometimes twisted or ignored, it is every doctor's duty to ensure to the best of their abilities that a patient lives and receives the best treatment possible. This includes treating patients in the best way possible with given information. If a person is dying and giving them a certain medication may restore that person or it may kill that person, the doctor is obligated ethically (or, in most cases, in order to reduce their own liability... the insurance is he||) to weigh his(or her) options and give treatment that would give the patient the greatest chances for recovery.

In this case, these guidelines have not been followed and some of the doctors have sworn that, with medical certainty, Terri Shiavo is in a vegetative state (wakefulness but not awareness). In this case, even if Terri is really in a vegetative state, the evidence doesn't point to it as far as we understand the science behind it.

I'm not sure if Florida law differs from California law with respects to living trusts and statements from next of kin, but here only a living trust would be admissible for someone in a semi-conscious state and it MUST say at least "regardless of my medical state, if I am unable to communicate in any fashion...". Terri has no living trust. IF she were PVS, then next of kin would be allowed to decide when their loved one should die (unless they don't have money in which case the hospital will usually decide for them) regardless of what the living will or trust says. No one is obligated legally to be kept alive if they have "no hope of recovery" and there are no resources, grants, or judicial decision in order to keep a PVS patient living.

The laws, affidavits, and medical opinions are all available online presently (it has been more than nintey days since the case was first brought to court) and I would urge everyone to find and read them before deciding whether or not Terri was aware, whether or not anyone broke the law by trying to circumvent the judge, and whether or not anyone had the right to ask that Terri be allowed to die.

I assure you that some of the outrage that surrounds this case is legitimate and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a legal battle which takes place after Terri is dead.
-S