The People On ATS Have Changed

I read in Discover magazine how global warming was poven to be accelerated by humans. We are in a natural warming trend, but industrialization is speeding it up. It's only going to get worse. I don't think we can eliminate it, but the governments of the world could be trying to make people more aware of what they can do to help. I was shocked when Bush rejected the Kyoto treaty. He didn't offer any support to it at all. He just flattly rejected it.

Personally, we are recycling trash, and I am going to replace my furnace and A/C soon.

I would like to buy a hybrid car, but they are too small. They don't look very safe. Someone in a SUV would crush the ones that are out right now. When they build a midsize hybrid I will look into it.

Originally posted by rwatkins
I read in Discover magazine how global warming was poven to be accelerated by humans. We are in a natural warming trend, but industrialization is speeding it up. It's only going to get worse. I don't think we can eliminate it, but the governments of the world could be trying to make people more aware of what they can do to help. I was shocked when Bush rejected the Kyoto treaty. He didn't offer any support to it at all. He just flattly rejected it.

Personally, we are recycling trash, and I am going to replace my furnace and A/C soon.

I would like to buy a hybrid car, but they are too small. They don't look very safe. Someone in a SUV would crush the ones that are out right now. When they build a midsize hybrid I will look into it.

And we're already having a hard time competing with developing nations in keeping jobs here in the good ol' USA. I guess maybe we should add tons more restrictions, to kick out whatever industry we have left. They can go to China and then we can complain about how there are no more jobs.

Oh Boy, Another "Let's Trot Out Our Sacred Dogma” Thread!

If I must be carted off and segregated into a camp, I suppose I would prefer the one daboga75 gets shipped off to.

He's right. The world really is NOT all about us, and no, we aren't divine and therefore separate from nature.

That's what all you “back to nature” Luddites are implying: that we humans are somehow separate and therefore, by implication, “above” nature.

I say: “Nay nay!”

Human beings are as natural as everything else under the sun.

Anything else is nothing more than classic “divine human” thinking, which is, if you'll pardon my French, bullpuckey.

No Really, It's Okay To Be Human, Honest!

We humans belong here as much as anything else. Only arrogance places us outside the reaches and ethics of nature.

Long ago, I wrote of how wonderful the “noble savage” was. Well, guess what: I was dead wrong.

There is nothing superior or romantic about being a hunter-gatherer that lives in the dirt. We have outgrown that mindset, thank God.

Well, most of us anyway. Evolution is not an across-the-board proposition. Not everyone evolves at the same rate.

If you are of the opinion that humans should live in a perpetual Dark Age, I recommend upgrading your thinking to at least the 19th Century.

We belong here, and we're doing precisely what we're supposed to be doing.

Suggestions to the contrary may be well-intentioned, but they are ultimately ill-informed.

People have changed, I'm hearing more people turning off the science to try to get right with God. There's nothing wrong with turning to God, I favor that, but don't turn fanatical and start denouncing science. You don't have to believe in all science, but be sure to read it yourself instead of getting it from some talking head trying to convince you that the earth is flat.

Not changing, The big three automakers. Check out incentives on SUVs vs Hybrids.

We can all stand by and do nothing oo we can take a look at what we have done to the planet and try to rectify it. It will probably never be the same as most things that are damaged aren’t then again perhaps we can create something even better. If the penny hasn’t dropped that you cannot continue to burn forests, destroy the land, pump pollution into the atmosphere and poison everything without impact then just continue to bury your heads in the sand and as usual leave it to ‘everyone’ else.

By the way when we are all dying jobs won't mean much trust me.

I at least try. I am not perfect in checking the list I see that I need to do a lot more.

1. Reduce home energy use by 10% -- working on this goal
2. Choose an energy-efficient home & appliances – replacing appliances with energy efficient ones, as they need replacing. Don’t forget water here as well – save water and recycle
3. Don't use pesticides – Haven’t cracked this as yet but using less if them
4. Eat meat-free meals one day a week – Don’t eat meat at all
5. Buy locally grown and produced food -- Yes
6. Choose a fuel-efficient vehicle -- Yes
7. Walk, bike, carpool or take transit – No don’t do this – too fat to walk to work
8. Choose a home close to work or school – I work a few kilometres from work
9. Support alternative transportation -- No don’t do this
10. Learn more and share with others – Yes, I do this

Remember also to recycle, plant trees and don’t burn fossil fuels. Limit the use of air-conditioning systems etc. It is our earth lets treat her with some respect huh.

Originally posted by steggyDAnd we're already having a hard time competing with developing nations in keeping jobs here in the good ol' USA. I guess maybe we should add tons more restrictions, to kick out whatever industry we have left. They can go to China and then we can complain about how there are no more jobs.

This is true, but what about new jobs created to develope new technology to reduce energy consumption? This is what Clinton was pushing. These are some of the things we could be doing, but are not. Outsourcing is another issue this administration is not dealing with. But that is another topic. We have alot of coal fired power plants here in Ohio, and none of them comply to environmental standards. Then we get a visit from Dubya in Columbus, and he recommended they increase production from these plants. Meanwhile the average person has to pay $20 every other year and take their vehicle in for E-Check, which is a program to try to reduce air polution. How crazy is that?

Personally, I think it's important that we should all try to do our best to reduce wastes, recycle or compost wastes, be energy-efficient, keep the earth clean, educate our children and adults on such-such and contribute to the well-being, health and safety of the civilized society and to each one of us.

But seriously, I do not wanted all of us to have to sing, "We are the world, we are the children!" every f*****g day. I mean get real.

Yet another admonition to not circumvent the censors.

But seriously, I do not wanted all of us to have to sing, "We are the world, we are the children!" every (blank) day. I mean get real.

No one is asking you to do that. Wouldn't make much of an impact if we did. It takes action and understanding. Big business, farmers, miners and us as people have impacted on the balance on this earth. Yes, we are meant to be here but we need to be responsible and keep our 'backyards clean'. We can have it all but it means a few changes need to made in the interests of everyone - not just some.

Not too hard really..

Majic's Goodspeak List

Originally posted by intrepid
Yet another admonition to not circumvent the censors.

My advice: just do what I do!

Instead of “f***ing”, just say “freakin'”!

“Bullsh*t” becomes “Bullpuckey”.

“As***le” becomes “Gazrok”**, and so forth.

No worries about ATS censorship, just let your creative juices flow!


** I am SO freakin' kidding about that.

Originally posted by intrepid
Yet another admonition to not circumvent the censors.

Sir, you have better things to do instead of worrying about the "*****"?

Sorry to be blunt but I AM blunt.

Thank you and have a nice Easter Day.

Originally posted by Majic
My advice: just do what I do!

Instead of “f***ing”, just say “freakin'”!

“Bullsh*t” becomes “Bullpuckey”.

“As***le” becomes “Gazrok”**, and so forth.

No worries about ATS censorship, just let your creative juices flow!

** I am SO freakin' kidding about that.

Thank you, majic. I'll keep that in mind.

Originally posted by Lady of the Lake
No one is asking you to do that. Wouldn't make much of an impact if we did. It takes action and understanding. Big business, farmers, miners and us as people have impacted on the balance on this earth. Yes, we are meant to be here but we need to be responsible and keep our 'backyards clean'. We can have it all but it means a few changes need to made in the interests of everyone - not just some.

Not too hard really..

I agreed. But a lot of people doesn't seem to share your (or even mine) sentiments. People, in general, are pretty selfish and self-centered and not everyone share with others and expect them to do the same, likewise. Most people also don't care about the conditions of the world but their owns.

For some, it's hard to wean themselves from their own conformed ways and standards.

I used to tell others of this: It is easy to TALK about doing something but it is hard to actually do something.

Originally posted by the_oleneo

I agreed. But a lot of people doesn't seem to share your (or even mine) sentiments. People, in general, are pretty selfish and self-centered and not everyone share with others and expect them to do the same, likewise. Most people also don't care about the conditions of the world but their owns.

This is true! I've always thought humans to be really diverse but when you get right down to it, there are really only 2 kinds, and what those kinds are I think is implied, but if not pm me and I'll spell it out for you!

The better half of humanity is always making up for the slobs... no offence. hehe.

We should just vote them all off of the planet. It doesn't take very much and instead of working in a coal factory why don't you work in a clean power generating station?

And yes, someone above me mentioned that we won't need jobs when we're dying. I'd tell that to Mr. Bush.

"You can have your damn economy, but it won't mean much to you when you're dead."

first off i don't buy into the myth of human caused global warming. yes we should try to cause less pollution, we are injuring ourselves by our pollution. but unfortunatly conseving energy can be rather expensive.

1. Reduce home energy use by 10%-rather difficult as i already try to use as little as possible, i have tried the newwer light bulbs with 2 problems, the damed things are a lot dimmer, or they don't last anywhere near as long( a normal light bulb can last me for years, a newwer low energy that costs more i'm lucky to have last over a month).
2. Choose an energy-efficient home & appliances- ah i wish i could afford to buy them (anyone want to trade a 20 year old fridge for a new efficant one)
3. Don't use pesticides- on what lol oh you mean rodent poison i need some way to cut down the dammed mice and traps only work once or twice then get ignored (smart little buggers)
4. Eat meat-free meals one day a week- what does that have to do with anything anyway? but nope tho i do try to eat some veggies with my meat
5. Buy locally grown and produced food- hard to tell where food is from unless you mean that overpriced eco crap.
6. Choose a fuel-efficient vehicle- sell it for under a thousand bucks but still built sollid sure. then i wouldn't have to buy a truck built in the eighties.
7. Walk, bike, carpool or take transit-at the moment i'm stuck on transit. more expensive than driveing and now my 30 min to work is 3 hours+ as soon as i can afford a new truck i'll drive thanks.
8. Choose a home close to work or school- wish i could afford to my dad did that which only doubled my travel distance.
9. Support alternative transportion- hybred cars well better hope a truck/suv don't hit you. the only reason i'm alive is i drove a truck now if they were to build a decent sized vehicle that was also built well (not a death trap like most newer cars) and i could actualy afford one sure why not.but as even the small hybreds are out of my price range i don't see that happening. my new trucks are typicaly 15-20 years old
10. Learn more and share with others- i'm all for learning more. useualy i learn i can't afford stuff thats enviromentaly friendly

if you haven't figured it out most things "that are enviromentaly friendly" are a lot more than us little guys can afford. now if you were to offer to trade say the engine from a 1979 grenada for a more efficiant or even a hybred one that would work in that vehicle without looseing much performance most people would take it in a heartbeat. unfortunately any thing that says efficiant tends to make it cost a lot more. so only the rich can afford to save energy. especialy when a lot of us can only afford used stuff. make efficiant cheap and most people would buy it. offer to swap old items and i think everyone would become more energy conservant. as it is well my low income only streatches so far thanks.

There a some Scientist who have released figures that 97% of the gases that cause global warming are produced naturally in the enviorment which we have no control over and only the remaining 3% is produced by humans of which only 0.16% could ever be controlled without dramatically changing every countries approach.This includes third world countries and China!!!!!!!!!.No chance at all but even if it was possible would be to little to make any effect.We as humans hace only excisted on this planet for 0.003 % of its life.The world we see today has only excisted for an even small factor.Change is constant on the planet to think that we can control the natural progression of the planet is ridiciulous.To make any long tem plans would be a waste of time and resources.There may never be a future for generations to come on Earth we will end up as the Dinosours.

Originally posted by humanoidcontent
The better half of humanity is always making up for the slobs... no offence. hehe.

Or vice versa.

Originally posted by humanoidcontent
We should just vote them all off of the planet. It doesn't take very much and instead of working in a coal factory why don't you work in a clean power generating station?

The real truth is that it's not about just the people, it's about the whole living infrastructure around the world. The ways we live and do, the ways we develop, build and change things to accommodate others and themselves. It's all wrong and wrong-headed.

I wouldn't expect anybody to work in a clean power-generating station in the future because it would be occupied and maintained by robots and AI computers. The advances in robotics and AI programming are quite accelerating today.

Originally posted by humanoidcontent
And yes, someone above me mentioned that we won't need jobs when we're dying. I'd tell that to Mr. Bush.

"You can have your damn economy, but it won't mean much to you when you're dead."

It isn't about Bush, it is about what we are all doing to each other. It is what the whole human race is doing to itself.

humanoid says:

"instead of working in a coal factory why don't you work in a clean power generating station?"

What kind of a "clean" power generating station do you have in mind?

Most electrical generating power stations run off coal or oil, and someone has to get it out of the ground, store it, and transport it to that "clean" power generating station you're talking about, right?

Are you talking about a nuclear power plant? Admittedly, it's cleaner and safer than the hydrocarbon-burning plants of today, but the same Luddites who quack about destroying the planet seem to want us to keep on using coal and oil since they are doing their best to block adoption of more nuclear power.

Are you talking about photovoltaic power plants? Given that 100% efficient arrays (whcih don't exist) can produce maybe 6 kW/m^2 on a sunny summer dayin the desert, would you care to determine how many square miles of the United States you'd have to cover in order to produce enough electricity to provide for our needs today?

And would you care to explain how you're going to store and distribute that electricity during the time when the sun doesn't shine -- and just what the pollution aspects of building and disposing of those batteries are?

I see all this talk about magic alternative energy as the solution to all our problems, and no one has ever sat down and posted exactly how they plan on doing this.

Am I the only person who has actually done any analysis of this problem? And if so, why?

Okay OtS, I'll try to write up a plan then I do not know how realistic it will be but I will make the effort.

Personally I believe we CAN clean up our act, but not without a whole lotta effort and casholla. Here it goes.

First things first is to stop bickering and start ITER for godsakes. There is not much fodder for neo-luddites to oppose fusion(well there is some but nothing rational like Tritium contamination from Breeder reactors), if this project takes off, in 20-30 years time we could be ready to deploy it commecially.

Second step would be to invest in lighter, stronger materials to increase fuel effiecency in well everything because we all know lighter wieght equals less fuel consumption. Invest more in Hybrid technology as well as Biofuels. More Tax credits for things like Solar, Wind and Tidal power, promote decentralization of the power grid.

Invest more into highspeed mass transit, N. America has really dropped the ball on this one, we really need High-Speed rail links badly.

Basically we need to encorage growth in all technological sectors(that encorage what I'm talking about), and practice what we preach(us Greens that is) it's the only way to clean up our act as a species. I know that's not really a concrete plan like you wanted but it's a good roadmap IMO.

Oh another thing just occured to me. If we say go towards a H2 economy without getting the energy from clean sources all is not lost. I know we are just displacing the emission from one source to another, but most of those Other sources are Big Centralized complexes and should actually be cheaper and more effiencent to put better pollution controls then to put them on every single car. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

[edit on 27-3-2005 by sardion2000]

sardion2000, you might wanted to learn some facts about EROEI:

Q: What is "energy returned on energy invested" (EROEI)?
A: When considering the use of any energy source to replace oil, an important concept is that of energy return on energy invested (EROEI). Energy resources are exploited at a cost. In other words, one needs to use energy to get energy. EROEI is the ratio that measures this. If the ratio is less than one–that is, if it takes more energy to get an energy source (such as oil from the ground) than is in the energy source, there is no benefit to extracting it.

People exploit the resources that are easiest to access first, and only exploit the resources that are hard to get at later on. Thus, as the age of cheap oil draws to a close, the remaining energy resources available to exploit are naturally the ones that are not as easy to access and use. Any substitution for oil will involve using a fuel of lower energy density and/or lesser convenience.

From: www.communitysolution.org...

It take a huge amount of oil to energize and maintain manufacturing and distributing capabilities on a global scale. If you scroll down in the website I'd provided for you, there's a question-n-answer on hydrogen.

[edit on 3/27/2005 by the_oleneo]