Toyota says it will fight U.S. House electric vehicle tax plan

So the US govt. is going to give $4500 tax incentive to buyers that buy and electric car made by Union Members. Isn't this against the law ?

Sept 11 (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp said Saturday it will sharply oppose a proposal by Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives to give union-made electric vehicles in the United States an additional $4,500 tax incentive.

Japan's largest automaker said the plan unveiled late Friday discriminates "against American autoworkers based on their choice not to unionize." The bill, set to be voted on Tuesday by the Democratic-led House Ways and Means Committee, would benefit Detroit's Big Three automakers, which have union-represented auto plants.

Toyota added that it will also "fight to focus taxpayer dollars on making all electrified vehicles accessible for American consumers who can’t afford high-priced cars and trucks."


www.msn.com...


Seems like an electric truck wouldn't get very far and what about all the electric charge stations around America. LA would be a disaster in the making.

Just go electric bicycle if one is so dang worried about climate change. " Sorry MIM, that's too easy of a solution " for climate change nutters.

a reply to: musicismagic

See, this is how it works.

The Union / Union Bosses receive forced dues (call it a DNC tax) from their members which then directly transfer over to the Democratic Party in the form of reelection and direct donations to DNC candidates. In return, the Democrats try to give them more Government money so then a portion of that taxpayer money can be kicked back directly to the DNC.

a reply to: musicismagic

I don't think it is illegal for them to give a tax credit on union made electric vehicles. But it looks like we are going to find out if it is.

I'm sticking with gasoline for as long as I can. Having to charge an electric car seems like a much bigger hassle than filling up the gas tank.

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: musicismagic

See, this is how it works.

The Union / Union Bosses receive forced dues (call it a DNC tax) from their members which then directly transfer over to the Democratic Party in the form of reelection and direct donations to DNC candidates. In return, the Democrats try to give them more Government money so then a portion of that taxpayer money can be kicked back directly to the DNC.

what is really sad (and if off topic or drift i apologize) is these same unions then claim their pensions are going broke and the retired members are gonna get less or none of what they were promised and PAID INTO.

maybe if the money taken WITHOUT APPROVAL for "political contributions" (in the tens of MILLIONS and more) were BACK IN THE RETIREMENT FUNDS they would not have this problem

hmmmmmm

scrounger

originally posted by: tamusan
a reply to: musicismagic

I'm sticking with gasoline for as long as I can. Having to charge an electric car seems like a much bigger hassle than filling a up the gas tank.

I don't think it is illegal for them to give a tax credit on union made electric vehicles. But it looks like we are going to find out if it is.

the cold hard truth for those pushing and promoting EV is that the PRACTICAL reality of the tech today does not match the hype and promises.

from the mining of elements for lithium ion batteries, to making them, to the limitations of the vehicles themselves, to the disposal of the batteries and the biggest where the hell is all the power for them gonna come from

they attack those who question EV tech, point out the flaws or even dare to ask quesitons.
just deflect, attack, and ignore facts.

the cold hard truth is the tech is no where near able to replace Gas engines in any way nor better for the environment at this time..

or anytime in the foreseeable future

scrounger

a reply to: scrounger

All of what you said and they seem to catch on fire much more frequently than a car with an internal combustion engine.

I’m dying to know how those tractor trailers that are driven cross country are gonna be replaced by electric. 3000 miles from NY to LA with a 40 ton load! Sounds like common goods will be a lot more expensive if the truck can’t haul as much.

a reply to: musicismagic

Hardly the first time this has been done.

The entire US auto industry is alive due to bailouts given to them from 2008 to 2014.

a reply to: tamusan

We took a trip to Nashville and back over Labor Day. Assuming a range of 300 miles, the same trip would have been a week-long ordeal in an electric vehicle. At least two days to drive out and two to drive back with another couple there. What we would have done with most of the day on the way out and back is anyone's guess because it doesn't take all that long to drive 300 miles. leaving you with most of a day to kill.

originally posted by: tamusan
a reply to: scrounger

All of what you said and they seem to catch on fire much more frequently than a car with an internal combustion engine.

they also when on fire pose a danger both to firefighters and anyone nearby..
they belch out TOXIC smoke and spill toxic waste..
both can harm people and enviroment.
in essence making (within reason depending on vehicle) a bigger threat than a similar gas powered car.

i once was a volunteer firefighter and what they told us about the dangers of an accident scene with EV vehicles would scare you silly.. it did to a room full of firefighters with a whole lot more experience than i had..

now having said that could an EV be beneficial ?

yes BUT IN LIMITED APPLICATIONS.. example tugs at an airport for cargo and planes, for golf carts, ect.

but the tech IS NOT AT THIS TIME ready to replace gas engines..
in some cases.. NEVER WILL.. in others... maybe with new tech..

but tech that IS NOT ready for the foreseeable future..

scrounger

a reply to: scrounger


Agreed 100% with you.

An electric bicycle is bad enough. LOL

But electric motorcycles now are to be common. Harley Davidson has put one out , if not mistaken.

originally posted by: Enduro
I’m dying to know how those tractor trailers that are driven cross country are gonna be replaced by electric. 3000 miles from NY to LA with a 40 ton load! Sounds like common goods will be a lot more expensive if the truck can’t haul as much.

along with the cold hard fact that (even if available) the recharge time is gonna limit the range of the trucks.

im sorry but for a FULL CHARGE (even taking into account if the battery was brand new) for a car takes HOURS.
what in hades do you think the time is gonna be for a big rig ?

even one not having a refrigeration trailer on it?

i know truckers have to be down for so many hours and theoretically that would be enough to charge them.
but the practicality is the range of the trucks is not gonna be as much as a gas one

so lets just say the range was the same for discussion sake (not factual)

a big rig takes what maybe 20 minutes to fill (they do use faster pumping than cars BTW) .

a EV would take oh 5 hours or more (give or take)?

hmmm how far ahead is the gas truck in that time

AGAIN the tech is DOES NOT MATCH THE CLAIMS.

scrounger

btw with an electric grid ALREADY stressed if not overtaxed (ex CA) where is all this extra power gonna come from?
not wind/solar

a reply to: scrounger

There's plenty of pros and cons for electric right now.

As you said, there is an argument they aren't better for the environment as it stands, which is their stated purpose. That's a pretty big deal. So I'll throw that out there first.

But, they do have better power delivery since the motors are right at the wheels with no differentials to lose power at. This means less latency when the driver provides input for acceleration, more torque, and consequently better safeguards by things like traction control. In fact, from a pure performance standpoint, they win out, except in range and refueling. Assuming battery tech changes, they should be a true contender in the near future.

The environment aspect is a bit trickier to tackle. We'd have to have a robust clean/renewable energy mix in the country, battery tech would have to change, and or fuel cells would have to be looked into harder for things like hydrogen or natural gas. If we develop a safe way to have an abundance of local or regional power production, you can use excess electricity which would otherwise be grounded when demand is down to produce the hydrogen or natural gas which can be used in fuel cells to power vehicles.

If it's done mostly by the free market, the consumer wins, and it would actually benefit our energy security. The innovation would also be good for the economy as big developments typically are. I'm not advocating for government intervention since they would likely mess it up or at the very least waste my money. Tax credits on American made is essentially tariffs on the foreign car manufactures, so no biggy there.

I wouldnt trust any deal that had something to do with the House of Representatives and Unions. They are crooked to the core. Any deal like that should be investigated thoroughly.

Im not opposed to electric vehicles. I do have some concerns though.

Ive had an electric bike for several years, and recently had to have the battery pack rebuilt. I do love riding it though. It does over 30 MPH, and can charge off my solar.



We do need to keep fossil fuel vehicles on the road.

originally posted by: tamusan
a reply to: musicismagic

I don't think it is illegal for them to give a tax credit on union made electric vehicles. But it looks like we are going to find out if it is.

I'm sticking with gasoline for as long as I can. Having to charge an electric car seems like a much bigger hassle than filling up the gas tank.

Thus raising one's electric bill .
And no thought on building newer electric production facilities .
Plus , the rise in coal needs .
The very stuff that Biden hates .
Remember the billions that Obama sent to the "green" companies" ?
Most went bankrupt shortly after receiving that "green".

The discussions around EV / ICE are always kind of inaccurate. I am driving EV for roundabout six months now. 100% only the EV. To understand where I am coming from, I own an engine engine repair shop. My heart belongs to ICE because they are much more emotional but I drive EV for performance, but use it daily.

People always try to reduce EV / ICE discussion down to environment and charging time. Seldom I hear something about the spare parts and their manufacturing, the service costs and their environmental impact. Also where all the energy will come from, when coal and nuclear is shut off.

Daily usage vs. Range
I drive about average 100km a day. This includes rural roads, city and autobahn. I've made a vacation trip 1600km both ways and I would do it again. I can add 100km in 7 minutes. Range is around 400km. I started on full charge and took two breaks, we went inside, I got a coffee, my daughter a hot chocolate, a little snack and toilet break, walking around. Second break we would eat something warm and that took maybe thirty minutes. The first time gave me 60% charge and the second one a complete refill.

Average speed on the autobahn would be around 120kmh and that's fast in current traffic conditions.
So for that hour break time, for a 7 hour trip one way, that's totally ok for me. Yes I have driven 1000+km too without more than a quick toilet break but seriously that's not something one does everyday.

Not once since I have the car have I feared sitting on the side of the road because of an empty battery. In an ICE powered car, these 10 seconds you should wait to get the engine lubricated, these are the ten seconds it takes to plug and unplug it when I park.

The travel is so comfortable and relaxing, it's like the difference between comfort in a stick (love manual!) and a automatic transmission for long drives, just here it's motor noise, vibrations that are not existent.

Environmental, EVs are slightly worse. Pollution just is elsewhere, at the power plants. On seconds look, if we talk about service and repair, EV is beating ICE by far soon.

Physics is mind boggling, my car weights 2.6 tons and moves like a ballet dancer over the track.

originally posted by: musicismagic
So the US govt. is going to give $4500 tax incentive to buyers that buy and electric car made by Union Members.

Isn't the correct term for the auto business "union assembled"?

So take a part from Mexico and a part from China. Click them together in the US. We get a $4500 incentive for that?

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain
Come back in 6 months time and try to tell the same story. When you start your journey and have to have the heater on full just to keep warm, then lo and behold someone gets stuck on ice, your battery WILL let you down at the side of the road and what then? Freezing your butt off waiting for the diesel powered generator to come to you and all the other vehicles in the same situation.
I wont go into all the situations that even petrol cars get into in winter on very isolated, dark stretches of road, at least a petrol car will keep you warm till help arrives, but when the electrics gone the whole car is FUBAR.

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

Not going to want to try to attempt a snow and ice commute in an EV. I've been stuck in traffic for too damn long - hours.

People's lack of understanding about EV's is just staggering!

Right now, the global percentage of EV's is somewhere between 1.6% and 2.2% (depending on how you dice the data). Remember this as you read what I write next.

Where I work we just spent $4,000,000 to put in about (40) EV charging stations. The day they were commissioned, the very same day, complaints started rolling in by the hundreds. Not enough! Every single one of them is always taken, and people complain they drove around for 45 minutes looking for an open one. People are IRATE, and they're totally free to the public. Not a single thank you! 1.6% to 2.2%.

The electrical distribution infrastructure (transformers, wires, panels, etc) to put in a single charging station is massive. People have no idea. If we were to charge money for these charging stations, like we should do, the cost would be $30-$40 per hour. People would be screaming! But we're the ones paying the power bill, not them. And then there's the build-out costs. 1.6% to 2.2%.

Build hundreds of them, thousands of them even! Damn you! That's what they say...at who's cost? Most facilities don't even have incoming electrical services large enough to handle the power requirements. For these facilities their entire electrical systems will have to be upgraded and upsized, costing billions upon billions of dollars...at who's cost? 1.6%-2.2%

Now let's add trucks to the mix. The wire alone to charge these vehicles costs $40-$50 per FOOT, and this doesn't even include the transformers, panels and the charging stations themselves. Imagine a truckstop with (200) of these stations! It would take a dedicated electrical substation to supply that much energy. And right now, there are 0% electric trucks. 1.6%-2.2%.

Wind and solar? HA!!! One of the biggest problems right now with wind and solar is...the power is not generated where it is needed, and where it is generated there is not the electrical distribution infrastructure (powerlines, etc) to get it to where it's needed. Now we're talking about having to upsize the entire "grid" in areas were wind and solar is generated in order to ship it to where the demand is. And who pays for that??? Take a state like Wyoming for example. Lots of wind and solar there, but no one to use it. To upgrade the grid between Wyoming and California, to ship the power to California would, require wholesale upgrades to the power grids of not only Wyoming, but also Nevada, costing trillions. The residents of Wyoming and Nevada aren't going to pay for that, so who is??? It's a freaking JOKE! 1.6%-2.2%

And then there's the disposal component. Something conveniently forgotten about by all the greenies. You can pay $600 per battery to replace the worn out battery in your Prius, or you can pay $200. Which do you think people will opt for, and do opt for? Do you know what the difference is? Of course people are going to take the $200 option, that's a no brainer, right? Well, lemme tell ya something; that $200 battery is not getting disposed of in accordance with the environmental laws (those laws the greenies themselves came up with), but the $600 battery is. Now let's scale this problem up by 98x! 1.6%-2.2%

The whole thing is hypocrisy of the highest order! People's heads are buried in the green sand. Unless there's a nuclear power plant on every street corner, the whole EV thing is just pure fantasy! Pure fantasy! 1.6%-2.2%

Oh, but (magically) things will change over time, (magically) things will improve, (magically) there will be power charging stations everywhere, and they will (magically) be paid for by someone other than ME! That great money god in the sky.
Yeah, and I've got some choice oceanfront property in Kansas to sell ya too! 1.6%-2.2%