How can you have objective morality without God?

originally posted by: Kreeate

originally posted by: dandandat2

originally posted by: Kreeate


Explain this first please...

Haven't you been paying attention? Its subjective morality...

... God can say murder is good.

But "he" doesn't exist so whatever "he" says is irrelevant and pointless.

If God can speak it must exist

nevermind

a reply to: daskakik

Not necessarily. Many societies existed that had a moral code that wasn't based on the Biblical worldview.

Sir, the Biblical worldview says that God gave all people a conscience to know right from wrong as part of their human nature. People have this objective moral conscience because they are human.

True, but moral codes spring from the need to control populations and not because of how man originated. Of course, the best tool for that was to instill fear of god or the gods in the people, even if it was all lies.

I greatly fear more the society that believes there is no God and no Judgment Day in the future where they will answer for the deeds done in their lives than a society that believes in God and final eternal judgment and operates accordingly.

So if God said kill all the amalikites but keep the vigins then that would be intrinsically good? What if God said kill your only son by nailing him on a cross? So then that us morally good as well? He said that to a couple ppl right? What if I said ok u want me to get my morals from God? I will start with liviticus. I'm not gonna start listing everything but if u wanna start this accounting I will. God is one of the least moral ppl I have ever come across. The only ppl that have lived a good moral life are ppl that have twisted his word or taken his word in a complete other context. Not one person who has ever taken what God said word for word has ever been a moral person. You have to twist his words to the point it's not even what he said so u might as well have formed your own religion from it to make what he says morally right. Pls don't get me started. The Bible is the worst place to get your morals. I heard a 9-11 survivor say today. The people above him are dead the ppl below him were dead but God saved him. How narcissistic that for him to actually believe that God looked down and said screw the ppl above him, screw the ppl below him, I want to let that man live and let the others die. Now the victims family has to think why didn't God want to save my family? I mean unless u play word salad and tell the family of the victims that God taking them was a good thing cause he wanted them with him but then u gotta tell the survivor God didn't want him in heaven he felt he deserved to suffer on earth longer. But that's how it is with religion and its twisted message and why ppl like u can't be argued with cause u can always twist the word of God to fit your narrative. I have been an atheist my whole life and never once wanted to rape and kill innocent ppl. I never thought I wanna be good so i go to heaven. That means I'm only being good to go to heaven. U gotta be an evil maker to say the only reason your good is cause u don't wanna go to hell. That means if it wasn't for he'll you would be raping and killing.

That's what I should have said. These arguments are pointless to the brainwashed

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
Sir, the Biblical worldview says that God gave all people a conscience to know right from wrong as part of their human nature. People have this objective moral conscience because they are human.

Circular logic.

Your belief in what god gave people doesn't make it true and it doesn't mean atheists stand on it.

I greatly fear more the society that believes there is no God and no Judgment Day in the future where they will answer for the deeds done in their lives than a society that believes in God and final eternal judgment and operates accordingly.

The thread isn't about your personal fears.

The fact is that a lot of people don't go around murdering barbecuing and eating others because they believe in human rights without feeling compelled to believe in god.

a reply to: daskakik

Im wondering, now, about that whole "3% of the population are psychopaths" being either a larger number, or a more fuzzy delineation, with more people showing psychopathic traits in decreasing amounts.

That people don't understand that morality can derive simply from the mixing of theory of mind with a sense of empathy, which dogs have by and large, is just baffling to me.

Now I see why folks think we need law enforcement and things like religion...thieves lock their doors most.

None of this is passing judgement, although i will admit it obviously appears as such. I can see the validity/strength of having access to people with that particular worldview/lifeview.

a reply to: NOTurTypical
According to the bible, god commanded them not to eat of the tree of knowledge and when they did, he threw them out of the garden and blocked access to the tree of life as punishment. Not sure if it says that the biblical god placed either of those two trees into the garden to begin with or if they were already there though.
The choice of tree of knowledge could be the choice between listening to one's own voice of conscious and instinct or listening to the voice of god, or in eve's case the spokesperson of god... Adam.
The tree of life... the plentiful bounty of the necessities of life that was freely provided to all.
When the gods saw that adam and eve were choosing the tree of knowledge over his counsel, he knew he had to do something to force them back to his obedience. Taking control of the bounty and using it to reward those who were obedient and allowing the rest to struggle in the less fertile lands usually won the gods their obedience.

And it has been eons since gods have chatted with anyone in person, it has been men relaying the "word of god" some of those men may have been sincerely trying to guide the people, but many have used "god" as a means to satisfy their own hunger for wealth and power. Add to that many of the stories and laws of the bible came from earlier writings that can be interpreted to tell us that these gods came to earth in search of gold or some other countries element that they needed to correct a planetary catastrophe on their own planet that was brought about by their warring nature but mining it was just too backbreaking for them so they interfered with our evolution to create slaves for themselves...
I don't know, maybe the middle east wasn't really the best source for our spiritual guidance? And. It is beginning to look like there may have been other civilizations of equal stature elsewhere in the world that the may have left some words of wisdom worthy of consideration.
If morality came directly from god, what was accepted in the old testament as being god's commands would be accepted as moral in our present day world.

Morality became evident to humanity once they've read/had access to the 10 commandments.

a reply to: daskakik

Your belief in what god gave people doesn't make it true and it doesn't mean atheists stand on it.

It’s not my belief, as in a subjective belief. That IS the Biblical worldview, that God have a conscience to all humans, the knowledge of good and evil. A society that doesn’t believe in God doesn’t make them non-human. You claimed morality exists in societies that don’t believe in God, but that doesn’t matter. Morality doesn’t come from their collective non-belief.

The atheist needs to explain where morality comes from, you already agreed if macroevolution is true then cosmic dust and random chemical processes WZ have no moral code.

The fact is that a lot of people don't go around murdering barbecuing and eating others because they believe in human rights without feeling compelled to believe in god.

You already stated this. It doesn’t change the Biblical worldview, which says man was created with a conscience by God. Man’s belief or disbelief in God has no bearing on his nature. If there is no God and no moral authority higher than man, why can’t I kill you and take your stuff? Why is that evil? Why does it matter what one random cosmic process does to another random cosmic process? You have no objective morality without God.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
It’s not my belief, as in a subjective belief.

It is your subjective belief that it is true.

The atheist needs to explain where morality comes from

No, they don't.

If there is no God and no moral authority higher than man, why can’t I kill you and take your stuff?

You can.

Why is that evil?

Is it?

You have no objective morality without God.

So, maybe there is none.

What's the problem?

We have a set of moral and ethical guidlines already written. These set of guidlines are written by menn.

But the big conflict we always face are feelings compared to what is written. These issues also exist when it comes to the law. They also exists when it comes to politics. We need a set of rules/laws to guid the public and political party’s. Because some pepole just lack empathy, moral and ethical limits or understanding. In other words…. Flock mentality is a dangures consept that needs to be regulated.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

a reply to: daskakik

Your belief in what god gave people doesn't make it true and it doesn't mean atheists stand on it.

It’s not my belief, as in a subjective belief. That IS the Biblical worldview, that God have a conscience to all humans, the knowledge of good and evil. A society that doesn’t believe in God doesn’t make them non-human. You claimed morality exists in societies that don’t believe in God, but that doesn’t matter. Morality doesn’t come from their collective non-belief.

The atheist needs to explain where morality comes from, you already agreed if macroevolution is true then cosmic dust and random chemical processes WZ have no moral code.

The fact is that a lot of people don't go around murdering barbecuing and eating others because they believe in human rights without feeling compelled to believe in god.

You already stated this. It doesn’t change the Biblical worldview, which says man was created with a conscience by God. Man’s belief or disbelief in God has no bearing on his nature. If there is no God and no moral authority higher than man, why can’t I kill you and take your stuff? Why is that evil? Why does it matter what one random cosmic process does to another random cosmic process? You have no objective morality without God.

Exactly!!

There's no objective morality without God and like you said, it doesn't matter what one random cosmic process does to another. When you said, IT'S ALWAYS EVIL to murder and eat humans daskakik said atheist can agree with that. When I pointed out that by agreeing with IT'S ALWAYS EVIL, he's acknowledging the objective morality of God, he changed up.

An atheist has to say there's no good and evil. An atheist has to say what Hitler did wasn't evil and if Hitler thought what he was doing was morally good then it's morally good. If Gacy thought it was morally good to bury bodies under his house, then it's morally good.

Without the objective morality of God there's no good and evil.

An atheist that gives to charity, has raised a family and helps his neighbor is no better or worse morally than an atheist that kills 30 people because they think it's morally good. There's no good an evil with atheism. With atheism, morals are relative to the observer.

a reply to: daskakik

Is it?

Yes, murder and theft are evil.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

a reply to: daskakik

Is it?

Yes, murder and theft are evil.

Was it evil when the biblical God told the Israelites to kill their enemies and steal their land, livestock and virgin women?

a reply to: daskakik

Is it?

Yes, murder and theft are evil.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Was the murder of Jesus a necessary evil?

a reply to: Sookiechacha

The tribe always need a scapegoat.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Was the murder of Jesus a necessary evil?

What murder of Jesus?

”Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” - John 10:17-18

a reply to: NOTurTypical

At what point did Jesus voluntarily lay down his life?

Was it after they forced him to carry a heavy cross through town, when they put the nails in, hung the thorny crown on his head, stabbed him under the rib cage? Or when he cried it "It is done" and took his (supposedly) last breath?

Why did Jesus need such theatrics to prove his point? Was the evil a necessary part of his "performance"?