How can you have objective morality without God?

originally posted by: Hecate666

I always agree with you but not this time.
Atheists don't need a compass because, just like free birds, they know their directions intrinsically.

A compass and religion are manmade for those who lack natural guidance.

And yet when the human moral compass had drifted off to the worst that humans have ever been on a grand scale were pretty much atheists events...

a reply to: dandandat2

Does the reason for doing good negate a good outcome?

a reply to: Xtrozero

And yet when the human moral compass had drifted off to the worst that humans have ever been on a grand scale were pretty much atheists events...

Which events would those be? And Hitler doesn't count. By his own admission, he was a Christian.

originally posted by: highvein
a reply to: neoholographic

We would have to create a Morality graph, and gather data in order to study your question further.

Altruism has been shown to exist in Nature.

A guy sales a kidney and it saves the life of a child,

The next year he sales another kidney which saves the life of another child. Is that good?

The following year he sales another which saves another child. Is that Bad?

Morality is moldable.

Morality isn't moldable.

This is why nobody has answered my questions.

Without God, there's no objective morality.

What's the difference between an athiest that feeds the homeless and is a great neighbor and an atheist that a serial killer? The answer is nothing.

The serial killer can say he thinks it's moral to kill people and the guy who feeds the homeless can say the same thing. Without objective morality from God, there's no difference between the morality of these two atheist.

There are 8 billion people on this planet. Only about a third of them follow the largest religion and even amongst them their is a lot of disagreement on what is moral. If athletes have a problem with morality because they don't follow the teachings of the correct religious denominations so too does the vast majority of the theistic population.

What's the difference if you have a compass thats pointed in the wrong direction or if you don't have a pointer at all? Your just as lost aren't you? At least the atheist might stumble onto the right direction from time to time.

How can you have objective morality with God?

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." - Richard Dawkins

God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses (Joshua 6). In Judges 21 He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife!

Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 & Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9). This type of criminal behavior should shock any moral person.

Source

originally posted by: highvein
a reply to: dandandat2

Does the reason for doing good negate a good outcome?

I don't know; at the very least it suggests that deep down the do gooder has a bad "heart" for lack of a better word. And that he would much rather prefer to be bad if he wasn't seeking reward or cowering in fear.

The person who does good for good sake with out fear or reward seems to have the more pure motivation.

originally posted by: highvein
a reply to: neoholographic

Define Morality.

That's not an answer; it's a deflection from the question presented.

Let somebody try to burglarize your home or rob you at gunpoint or rape your mother and I bet you'd have no problem figuring out the definition of morality.

originally posted by: incoserv

originally posted by: highvein
a reply to: neoholographic

Define Morality.

That's not an answer; it's a deflection from the question presented.

Let somebody try to burglarize your home or rob you at gunpoint or rape your mother and I bet you'd have no problem figuring out the definition of morality.

Exactly!

That's why nobody has answered the simple question:

What's the difference between an athiest that feeds the homeless and is a great neighbor and an atheist that a serial killer? The answer is nothing.

The serial killer can say he thinks it's moral to kill people and the guy who feeds the homeless can say the same thing. Without objective morality from God, there's no difference between the morality of these two atheist.

a reply to: neoholographic

What's the difference between an athiest that feeds the homeless and is a great neighbor and an atheist that a serial killer?

One is a burden on society. The other is not.

a reply to: neoholographic

My morality derives almost solely from the glaringly obvious truth of the Golden Rule. I.e., empathy.

Only a person who lacks empathy doesnt understand this. Psychopathy doesnt have to be a bad thing if managed with awareness. But they tend to be who the rest of us think of as assholes.l dye to the tendency to act without regard to empathy.

I cant imagine what a burden it must be tying morality to a series of parables. Before such a person is even fit for public consumption they have to learn so much of what comes natural to normal people.

originally posted by: Klassified

Stalin, who outlawed religion 40+ million killed just to create fear
China, Killed/starved 100 million+, no one really knows, as they pushed into their industrial revolution.
Pol Pot Killing fields


China was pretty bad in the past too 1645 couple million killed in like 10 days...

Now you can say the Christian Crusades with 5 million over 500 years, but just like your WWII we can also say much of CC was political more than religious.

The problem is when religion is pushed aside in the past we tended to go total retard, and it took religion to get us back on some moral path.

a reply to: neoholographic

What is God's Morality? Did he create the atheist as well as the beliver so the lesson could be learned?

Morality. Does God use war for achieving his desire?

I believe a quest for 'objective morality' stems from dangerous, fundamentalist, dogmatic and defensive instincts which should be avoided. It breeds monsters.

The more modest objective of being a better person in the world requires humility, love, flexibility, and honestly embracing uncertainty. It is very much a subjective and sometimes difficult process.

originally posted by: neoholographic

What's the difference between an athiest that feeds the homeless and is a great neighbor and an atheist that a serial killer?

Empathy. A theory of mind. The basic toolkit of 97% of humanity.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Hecate666

I always agree with you but not this time.
Atheists don't need a compass because, just like free birds, they know their directions intrinsically.

A compass and religion are manmade for those who lack natural guidance.

And yet when the human moral compass had drifted off to the worst that humans have ever been on a grand scale were pretty much atheists events...

You are saying the Crusades did not happen? The Spanish Inquisition did not happen? The Salem Witch Trials did not happen? Do I need to go on? Everyone says ‘God is on our side’ in any war no matter who we are and who we are fighting. I never understood how that worked.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

What's the difference between an athiest that feeds the homeless and is a great neighbor and an atheist that a serial killer? The answer is nothing.

The serial killer can say he thinks it's moral to kill people and the guy who feeds the homeless can say the same thing. Without objective morality from God, there's no difference between the morality of these two atheist.

Still no answer. This is because an atheist morality is no different than Jeffrey Dahmer's morality. Without God, there's no objective morality.

A rapist can say he's moral and he thinks it's good to rape women and he's no different than the atheist who works at the soup kitchen on weekends and is on the city council.

a reply to: neoholographic

What's the difference between an athiest that feeds the homeless and is a great neighbor and an atheist that a serial killer? The answer is nothing.

I don't think that's objective morality at all. 

That seems a way of saying, "all theologically skeptical people are incapable of being my subjective interpretation of moral".

Is it objectively good to overtly bait people of a different "moral compass"?

Good does not equal a specific compulsory abstraction.

Do you like elephants? It's true they remember. And if you're friendly and happen to die/or fall unconscious out in the savanna, and one recognizes you, even if you're just unconscious they'll still take you to their graveyard. Their unwritten ritual extends to humans.

fantasticfacts.net...

Is there an elephant bible I'm missing, or do higher evolved creatures naturally operate with empathy? And without need for a benevolent abstract concept to do so.

originally posted by: beyondknowledge

You are saying the Crusades did not happen? The Spanish Inquisition did not happen? The Salem Witch Trials did not happen? Do I need to go on? Everyone says ‘God is on our side’ in any war no matter who we are and who we are fighting. I never understood how that worked.

Sure they happened, some were more political based, but compared to the Ashiest ones they are small potatoes.

originally posted by: incoserv

originally posted by: highvein
a reply to: neoholographic

Define Morality.

That's not an answer; it's a deflection from the question presented.

Let somebody try to burglarize your home or rob you at gunpoint or rape your mother and I bet you'd have no problem figuring out the definition of morality.

He posed a question. I needed to know what his definition of Morality was so I could answer the question.

Your mind jumped to very dark scenarios. If that's any indication of your mental state don't worry so much, it's all part of the grand plan., right?