"Untitled", mostly for non-believers

If you claim to not believe in God, because you cannot see/feel Him. Then how is it possible to feel love? You can't see love, only expressions of love. So how can one state because they cannot see/feel God, He doesn't exist. Yet that same person can say "I love you"? I'm not at all starting a thread to bash someone who does not believe in God, that's not my style at all..I'm trying to figure out things myself and words from you might help me to figure certain things out...

There's more I'll add later..but this is the start of my inquiring mind

I don't beleive in god, not because I can't see him nor feel him, but because I'm not egocentric enough ( I'm not saying that you're egocentric ) to think that the humans are more than an animal specie or that religions are more than a way to oppresse peoples etc...
I could argue on it but I think that I could miss the point.

Love is biochemical,
Oxytocin, a peptide produced by the brain's limbic system, is released in both men and women during sexual climax as well as during birth and breast-feeding. Receptors located in the brain's dopamine reward system reinforce the good feelings that these activities bring. But oxytocin, like love, works in mysterious ways. In women, estrogen seems to facilitate the feel-good effects of oxytocin by moderating the release of adrenaline and other stress hormones. Testosterone makes men more susceptible to the fight-or-flight response and mitigates the stress-relieving effects of oxytocin. "Although cause and effect is difficult to discern, oxytocin certainly facilitates social networks," says neuroscientist Jaak Panksepp. "And better social networks are associated with better overall health and increased longevity.

So then you have or do love someone? But you don't believe in God? And no I don't think I'm egocentric..could be, but don't think so. I also disagree with love being a chemical in the brain thing. Why? Well because not all people feel love, EVER..not all people really know what love is suppose to feel like. And thirdly and most importantly, women do not always feel that love for their newborn children..sometimes it can take a long time to feel that love and sometimes again, never. So that pretty much swipes out what you've stated about it being a definate chemical release in the brain.
Mag

So then you have or do love someone? But you don't believe in God?

Yes, I love my family, my girlfriend and my niece. No sorry I don't believe in god, you know, no body's perfect

And no I don't think I'm egocentric..

I was not saying that you are egocentric, I think you misunderstood me. Sorry but I was not trying to offend you in any way, I'm not that kind of person.

I also disagree with love being a chemical in the brain thing. Why? Well because not all people feel love, EVER..not all people really know what love is suppose to feel like.

It's not because someone is not feeling love or that he had never feeled love that he can't. Brain chemistry can be influenced by many factors, like depression or anxiety as well as mental illness. Have you ever experienced a depression ( Not sure but I think you've posted something about this, really sorry if I can't remember ) ? If yes you should know what I'm talking about, because when I done my depression, I've begun to slowly feel nothing for anyone or anything; no fun, no pleasure and at last, no love. Depression change the brain chemistry, that's why Anti-depressors help, they work as emotive stimulant...

[Edited on 16-7-2003 by Salem]

I knew that would come out all wrong, story of my life..it's REALLY very hard to shed emotion over the computer, as I'm sure you know...So I was just answering your questions. Not thinking at all you were stating I was this or that

Also, I don't think you are any less/more perfect then someone who believes in God. You are probably more adamant about your beliefs then someone who is inbetween..or even someone who does believe. So please don't think that's what I think..

I have not really experienced depression..but I've experienced it through someone very close to me..which to me was just as hard as the person going through it.

I thank you for your replies here..perhaps I'm not even sure what I'm trying to get at. It's something I'm feeling, and so it's not geared to set up non-believers in any way..

I just have some thoughts in my head about God being love and giving love..but we cannot see Him, or love yet we can feel no God, but feel love or feel God, but no love..That make any kind of sense?
Magestica

* I think I'm changing my title to "confused one" instead of spirited one*

Originally posted by magestica
I knew that would come out all wrong, story of my life..it's REALLY very hard to shed emotion over the computer, as I'm sure you know...So I was just answering your questions. Not thinking at all you were stating I was this or that

I was just wanting to be sure that you wasn't understanding me... you know, my first language is french ( and probably my only one ), I never talked "in person/live" in english ( is that our education system is not that crapy? ), so some times I must be sure that I'm not misunderstood and that I have well explained myself. Sorry if I've get this all wrong, it was not willingly

Also, I don't think you are any less/more perfect then someone who believes in God. You are probably more adamant about your beliefs then someone who is inbetween..or even someone who does believe. So please don't think that's what I think..

Don't worry, I was just kidding, I'm always kidding. I don't really know you but after reading some of your posts I know you're not like that, and I was not thinking that you were thinking that. You're probably the most kind believer person on this board.

* I think I'm changing my title to "confused one" instead of spirited one*

No way
I'm probably more confused than you...

[Edited on 16-7-2003 by Salem]

I don't feel love, I am very doubtful such a feeling exists, what I believe in is the conjugation of sexual desire and, in some cases, like me, intelectual admiration.

But if I were to defend the existence to love in spite of the unability to feel it, it's to simple, you can feel love, and no matter how disgustingly romantic and religious you are you cannot feel God.

That's the answer I was looking for from someone who doesn't believe. You see..I have many friends or people I know/meet that don't believe in God and also most of them claim not to believe in love. Which, I can totally see that to be the case as above stated. It's people that say they don't believe in God, and yet do believe in love that I'm curious about. Most athiest I know will say there is no God, no love, no nothing, we are here, we live we die..that's it..

What I'm curious about is what came first? Did you not feel loved or love for anyone, then decide there was no God? Or was it the other way around, or at the same time? If someone were to show you love, that you could feel and inturn love them back, would you then think about the possibility of existance of God? Or not at all?

Lot's of questions...I know and I'm sorry..you are not obligated to answer any or all..I'm not trying to help you, I'm trying to understand myself by understanding you
Magestica

No problem as for the number of questions I like replying actually

So let's see.

"Most athiest I know will say there is no God, no love, no nothing, we are here, we live we die..that's it.. "

This would be called Nihilism, nihilism is not a prerequisite of atheism, but it could result from atheism, and atheism (or agnosticist atheism) is a prerequisite for Nihilism.


"Did you not feel loved or love for anyone, then decide there was no God? Or was it the other way around, or at the same time? If someone were to show you love, that you could feel and inturn love them back, would you then think about the possibility of existance of God? Or not at all? "

I akways felt loved, by my parents and family, by my girlfriend and all.
I wasn't allways an atheist so I guess atheism came second.
The question really is if I can explain that love in a less metaphysical side, if I can, then I can say I don't believe in love, and it is quite easy to explain really,

My fathers say they love me, but this is not metaphysical, this is a result of animal nature, of nature itself, would you say that a monkey could feel love? No. Yet it still protects his descendency with it's life, regardless of it's inability to feel, this is a result of a natural sense of survival of the species, this is aplicable to humans aswell, on the other hand, in humans we also can understand there are feelings involved in a parental relationship, first of all the "creation" feeling, your descendency is your creation, it's your own work and the end of your life circle, thus you care for it a lot and that is what some people would call love.

As for my gf, many times I look at her I say I love her, what we both know is that this is only an easy way of saying something like:
I deeply care for you, I find you sexually atractive (and in my case it would also mean) and everything you are I find I like, I like how much of an intelectual interaction you give me and I feel I want to spend my lifetime by your side because I feel good about being as close to you as possible.

This is what I believe in, not love, �nimal nature is projected towards sex, your lifecircle is all about sex, you are the result of a sexual interaction and your own lifecircle ends after you have your descendancy, Humans are however rational and exceptionally conscious, which allows ourselves to look for more in a relation then only sex itself, this however is not love, but what I explained.

I have a feeling this is really confuse


Hope I answered your questions.

So then, by your member name I'm assuming you do believe in the antichrist? *off topic, just thought of it though*

So you are basically saying that true love, is more metaphysical? And that would be the love connection with God? I'm trying to understand this, really. Are there more then 1 type of love? I know there are, because we obviously feel love differently for different people. Do you think love comes from several different places? But only one within you? Whereas someone who believes in God might have a different place to feel love or give love? I really hope this is coming out the way I want it to.

For instance. I feel love for someone from the depths of my soul, a place where I can associate also a love for God, but of course in a deeper sense..I don't feel that love for just anyone..and to me that is *true* pure sacred love...

I think you are saying too much sex/love connection, therefore I hate to say this, but don't think you have felt that true love from the inner depth of your soul?? Am I wrong? I don't see the love/sex connection. I've had sex with *some* and didn't love them. Hell, I can go down the road and sleep with the guy there, but I feel no love for him at all..OR I could love him, but never have/had sex with him at all. Do you believe you have a soul? Or spirit? I don't think an athiest would, but it could be possible?

Are you afraid to believe in God? Are you afraid that truly loving someone in the sense I've mentioned would bring you to have doubts about not believing in God?

Glad you like questions
Mag

My membername reflects my views towards christianity, I do not believe in the coming of an antichrist, I for all am an antichrist, everyone who despises and seeks the end of christianity is an antichrist and our numbers are not small.

I am saying true love doesn't exist
I am saying love as a feeling does not exist, I am saying people say love instead of saying a big bunch of words which only imply perfectly explained phisical phenomenom like sexual atraction or sense of parental protection.

I believe not in true love, obviously I have never felt it, and as it doesn't exist I guess I will never feel it

I am not linking love and sex, I am saying sexual atraction is one part of what you like to call love

I don't have a soul, or a spirit, no
I have a brain thou, and I have individual thoughts and an individual existence, nothing beyond the physical, no.

I am not an atheist, I am an agnosticist which thinks if there's to be a God it'd have nothing to do with anything anyone has ever dreamed, let alone religious, I perceive the possibility of God's existence only in the "creator" sense and not in the religious one.

I am afraid I dislike belief in anything beyond the rational
There is no true love to feel, you see, I think that any "true love" can be explained psychologically and you'd be amased at what inspires that true love, and it ain't anything godly.
You see I am desperate about my ex-gf, for some reasons she is not my gf anymore and still I do know there is nothing in the world I want more than to get back with her, there is nothing I want more than to live my whole life with her, and yet it is not true love, it is a need based on loneliness, sexual atraction and deep admiration, but not love, such a thing does not exist, my opinion is it was an invention to mask sex.

The problem with most lies is that they become true after some time, and so I think it happened, it is rather strange to hear anyone say love doesn't exist or that he/she never loved, it is indeed a social need to love someone, you'd feel "different" if you didn't and that would add to all the factors I described above, I hope you don't feel offended or like I am totally uncosidering with your "love", it is just how I think and I doubt I'll ever have a reason to think differently.

Originally posted by Antichrist
My membername reflects my views towards christianity, I do not believe in the coming of an antichrist, I for all am an antichrist, everyone who despises and seeks the end of christianity is an antichrist and our numbers are not small.

I am saying true love doesn't exist

I am saying love as a feeling does not exist, I am saying people say love instead of saying a big bunch of words which only imply perfectly explained phisical phenomenom like sexual atraction or sense of parental protection.

I believe not in true love, obviously I have never felt it, and as it doesn't exist I guess I will never feel it

I am not linking love and sex, I am saying sexual atraction is one part of what you like to call love

I don't have a soul, or a spirit, no

I have a brain thou, and I have individual thoughts and an individual existence, nothing beyond the physical, no.

I am not an atheist, I am an agnosticist which thinks if there's to be a God it'd have nothing to do with anything anyone has ever dreamed, let alone religious, I perceive the possibility of God's existence only in the "creator" sense and not in the religious one.

I am afraid I dislike belief in anything beyond the rational

There is no true love to feel, you see, I think that any "true love" can be explained psychologically and you'd be amased at what inspires that true love, and it ain't anything godly.
You see I am desperate about my ex-gf, for some reasons she is not my gf anymore and still I do know there is nothing in the world I want more than to get back with her, there is nothing I want more than to live my whole life with her, and yet it is not true love, it is a need based on loneliness, sexual atraction and deep admiration, but not love, such a thing does not exist, my opinion is it was an invention to mask sex.

The problem with most lies is that they become true after some time, and so I think it happened, it is rather strange to hear anyone say love doesn't exist or that he/she never loved, it is indeed a social need to love someone, you'd feel "different" if you didn't and that would add to all the factors I described above, I hope you don't feel offended or like I am totally uncosidering with your "love", it is just how I think and I doubt I'll ever have a reason to think differently.

*APPLAUSE*

Just when I thought I was alone

Thanks for answering my questions.

Well just so we have something squared away, I'm NOT a christian. I'm not any religion actually. I've stated this many times here in the past, but wasn't sure if you had read it before. I have beliefs, like you stated in the Creator, alot of by beliefs would most likely fall into the way some Native Americans believe, or Pagan..those are the closest I can find in comparison.

I do read the bible..but I don't think of it the same as some would who are devout whatever..Have you ever read any of the above said beliefs? Native or Pagan? I never thought I would find a *religion* that would fit what I believe and what I think and feel about things-though, I would not, and most NA people would not say that their belief is a religion. I could tell you some things if you are in the least bit interested? Not that I'm trying to persuade you..please, that's totally not my style at all, never would do that to anyone. But you might relate, or find it atleast funny

How old are you btw? Reason I ask has to do with your feelings views about love and what you've said you feel for your ex-girlfriend. Again, no judgement on age here with me..I've met 16 years that have some great views! And 30 year olds that are clueless...you could also send me a u2 if you don't want to share your age with the entire board

Why don't you feel you have a soul or spirit? Have you ever dealt with anything at all that's metaphysical or paranormal? Do you believe in past lives? I know I'm seeming really nosey..As I said you can for-go any question that you feel is none of my friggen business
Thanks Mag

Althou I didn't know your 2stance" on religious matters I actually tought it would be something like that.

Althou not a master on it I consider myself fairly conscious about both Christian and Pagan beliefs, I also know most european pagan mithologies, like the Viking, Greek, Roman, Celt and Iberian myths.

I am interested in anything people may be interested in telling me , but I don't understand what you said you could tell me about, are you refering to Pagan and Native beliefs? It's ok eitherway, just got stuck somewhere on those lines and don't understand the end of the sentence (fecking bad english also)

I am 17 no problems with my age, I consider myself fairly enlightned for my age, this is, I've been almost everything, from a comunist christian to a pagan inspired national socialist, which I am not proud of, mind you; indeed most of my friends consider me a focking decrepit old hermit cause I am so interested in culture, philosophy and science this is.

Why do I think I have no soul or spirit?
Why should I think I had? I mean, everything dealing with my own self can be explained physically.
Best cure against belief in soul or spirit? Carl Sagan's "The Dragons of Eden"

Dealt with anything metaphysical?
I would consider moral and values metaphysical, I deal with them everyday.
Ok I understand the answer you really want, and that is, hum... probably no.

Past Life? No. Show me some proof, I'll dismantle it

I could tell you about NA, but I don't think you'd really care to delve as it has alot to do with spirituality, and I'd suppose the same would go for Neo-Pagen(Wiccan)-guess I should of elaborated a but more on the *Pagen* I was referring to..

I can tell you this though, If you ever are able to go somewhere and you are wanting to find a deeper meaning without *religion* I would suggest highly that you travel to an Indian Reservation and befriend someone with high beliefs..(don't worry, most of the time they'll seek you out) because they know you are searching..and I can assure you, you may not feel like you have a spirit now, but you will after you leave there I cannot really go into great details, as everyones experience/teacher is different...but you'll certainly enjoy it, if done properly with proper openmindedness(is that a word?) LOL!

You should ATLEAST search for something, don't give up on things so early in life..I kind of gathered you were young, but very intelligent

Words really mean nothing to most people, they have to be shown things in order to feel it..I can't do that from where I sit..

OK, with all of that said, you can do nothing at all and continue on as if I never typed anything to you..it's your choice..I must say though..there was a time in my life where I felt alot like you and now...well..I'm very different and it's better inside to feel this way
Magestica

It seems like you think I gave up on finding meanings to life or try finding something to do with existence, truths, I guess, that is wrong, I am an avid philophy reader, the philosophy I mostly pay atention to is existential philosophy, like that of Nietzsche (surprise surprise ), Albert Camus, Jean-Paul Sartre just to givea few examples, I am studying science in school, and I do want to have a job related to sciences, and I think that scientific thought is also one way of searching for truth and for meaning (or lack of it) in existence.

Indian reservations? Are you talking about American Indians or India Indians? Like hindu and that kind of stuff? Eitherway tsuch a travel destination is highly unlikely for the time being, I live in Portugal and both those destinations are mid-way to the other side of the world

Yet I understand you have gone trhough such an experience. What is it you have learned or understood in that experience?

Actually I really hadn't felt you'd given up..I just didn't want to say "You seem to be searching" (course which is the worse assumption ) I do/did feel though that you are a searcher, as most searchers have somewhat the same kind of thoughts as you..and will study everything that comes their way (again though, assuming)

I was referring to NA, being American Indian. And I didn't mean now, just go there sometime in your life, maybe when you are older and able to travel??

What have a learned? Wow, about half my lifes' beliefs consist of all that I was shown or taught..I don't share all of it, just bits and pieces here and there..only because it was shown to me to learn and grow with, not shown to me to go out and teach it I guess I'd feel somewhat of a betrayal if I were to tell someone everything?? It's rather weird..something inside just tells me not to, though I WANT to..

I can tell you though, it made me think twice about alot of things, things I wasn't sure about or things I questioned..but at the same time it kind of placed alot of questions inside me, things I should ask that I wouldn't have thought of asking prior..but as you know, questions are good..they help us to learn and understand, they give us meaning and searching capabilities..

You do have a soul and a spirit though..just like me and everyone else..it would be impossible for me to have one and you not..I'm no better or worse then you, we are both human..

Give me a bit and I'll elaborate more about why I know we have a soul and spirit..It could get very long and I might ramble if I don't think it out properly(that is, if you care to hear)
Magestica

Please have any bit of time you may need to put up the answer as nicely as you can

Just a little note to let you know I had not forgotten..I actually spilled some beans in another thread, that could pertain to this one, so if you go to Religion vs. Spiritualism by Toltec, you can read the long winded reply about how I came to believe certain things..
Magestica

I believe in god,

I also believe that we are superior to him because will live and die. We have instinct. He has a master plan that we should go against just because it his plan and not ours.