The intrinsic necessity of capitalism

a reply to: ToLiveIsToDie
I'm more in the middle of the spectrum whereas my needs are less likely to clog the flow of products and services...👍

Advice on confusion

No matter how many parallels you will find
There will always be a straight line
Be compelled to follow it!
Be encouraging in the forming of friendship

...author unknown

Gab social don't let me post original content because I'm not authenticated...

originally posted by: ToLiveIsToDie

Exploit, take advantage from,?? Forget good or evil. Do you like to take advantage of people, to exploit them? yes or no?

This is a nonsense argument. Your list of definitions also includes "benefit from", which isn't necessarily synonymous with "exploit". Like I said, there's nothing wrong with earning an income from your work. However, a moral issue may arise when business owners decide not to fairly compensate their employees for the work they do. All of us have a choice where to work, or at least we would in a thriving economy which wasn't dominated by monopolies.

We also have a choice where to shop and which businesses to support. At the end of the day every business has a choice what to pay their employees, every person can decide not to work for slave wages, and every person can decide not to support businesses which pay slave wages by boycotting them. So I have quite a bit of trouble placing all the blame on capitalism or CEO's when in reality it's every single one of us who allow it to happen, just like we've allowed them to destroy the economy during this pandemic.

When total authoritarianism rises the only thing I will blame is the conformist masses.

originally posted by: AaarghZombies

My own experience is that most Americans don't understand what is or isn't socialism, and they end up describing some kind of wacky version of Communism as described on a 1950s public service announcement.

In my experience there's also a lot of people who try to over-complicate the definition of socialism. Communism in my mind is simply a more extreme form of socialism, the end result of overzealous socialist policies. Growing up (outside the US) I always cringed at those old shows and movies where communism was treated like some existential threat, but the older I get the more I'm beginning to realize that those guys knew a bit more than I did as a child.

Also notice how I use the phrase "excessive socialism", because all modern societies are really a blend of socialism and capitalism. Having some degree of socialism is certainly necessary to have a healthy society with modern social services that taxes pay for. As I've explained many times before, the real threat is the slow creep of socialism which slowly undermines the foundations of capitalism until it eventually leads to a failed economy and failed state.

Here are some of the previous threads I've written on this topic which go into more detail:

Why Free Market Capitalism Creates Prosperity

The Supremacy of Westernized Asian Nations

Why Increased Socialism Leads to Increased Prices

Why Excessive Socialism Doesn't Work

Flawed Logic of The Venus Project

Debunking Post Capitalism

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

And even then that argument is a failure about resource use.

Look at many of the larger socialist/communist nations and you will see massive environmental destruction and resource degradation.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder

originally posted by: ToLiveIsToDie

Exploit, take advantage from,?? Forget good or evil. Do you like to take advantage of people, to exploit them? yes or no?

This is a nonsense argument. Your list of definitions also includes "benefit from", which isn't necessarily synonymous with "exploit". Like I said, there's nothing wrong with earning an income from your work. However, a moral issue may arise when business owners decide not to fairly compensate their employees for the work they do. All of us have a choice where to work, or at least we would in a thriving economy which wasn't dominated by monopolies.

We also have a choice where to shop and which businesses to support. At the end of the day every business has a choice what to pay their employees, every person can decide not to work for slave wages, and every person can decide not to support businesses which pay slave wages by boycotting them. So I have quite a bit of trouble placing all the blame on capitalism or CEO's when in reality it's every single one of us who allow it to happen, just like we've allowed them to destroy the economy during this pandemic.

When total authoritarianism rises the only thing I will blame is the conformist masses.

Only the Capital benefits from it, the ones in the top of the pyramid.

Sure you have a choise, you could choose NOT to work and buy stuff, and to just lay down and die... what a great choise!
In my country it is illegal to be homeless and not have an address, so you have to work and be part of the system.

I never blamed the CEO´s, I blame the system and society. They are born into this just as much as we are, they are just doing what everybody else in their position is doing.
Iam saying those greedy bastards on top of the pyramid are just as much victims as everybody else. They are addicts to the power and money and should be treated just the same as alcoholics and drug addicts.
That means treatment not jail.

You yourself just said we should blame ourself, and youre right. But youre also aknowledging that there is a problem with that statement.
Can you mention 1 thing from this system that benefits you in a good and fair way?

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Private ownership is not evil, it provides individual liberty. And as I also explained, capitalism doesn't require debt-based money to function. I'm starting to believe that this destruction of the economy is intentional so all the suffering can be blamed on the failings of capitalism rather than those who did everything possible to ensure our economy would fail. Capitalism has created some of the most powerful and prosperous nations on Earth, it's only when they succumb to excessive socialism do they fail spectacularly, as we've seen time and time again throughout history.

Youre properly right about the destruction of the economy is intentional. But you should take a look at scandinavia. They are way ahead of america on so many fronts, people are happy and there is very few poor people. They are what some would call socialist countries.
I would still call them capitalist.
Everything is about growing the economy, so they invent useless jobs to create jobs so the people are happy.
So a factory in one part of the country, who produce and package stuff to sell, gets money from the goverment if they where to move the packacking to the other side of the country, so they now need truck drivers to transport it across country several unnecessary times... thats capitalism
Capitalism made ALL companies produce stuff that last only 2 years, instead of 10´s of years, cause that forces people to go out and buy new stuff every 2 years... Take a look at the state of our planet, you can thank your precious Capitalism for that...

Where exactly did I write that TPTB should control all the capital? What you don't seem to realize is that heavily socialist systems and communist systems are exactly what you fear, all resources are controlled by a highly centralized government and there is no private ownership of resources. The only semi-logical reason for doing such a thing is to reduce overuse of resources by allowing the government to decide when and how resources get used. But I deeply oppose that sort of centralized big gov due to the destruction of freedom and ownership that it entails.

You didnt, but they do control it and you praise the system, dont you?
But as i stated in my earlier post, all those other systems are just as bad aswell...
The problems arise as soon as other people are allowed to govern and rule the rest. We should have some sort of agreement instead, sort of what the constitution used to be before the American people allowed it to be obselete.

Explain to me exactly why it's evil for a business to earn a profit on a product they developed? If I create a work of art which took me hundreds of hours, why is it evil to desire some compensation for that work? If I purchase a blank canvas, put some paint on it, and then sell it for more than the cost of the canvas, that isn't evil, it's called making a living by doing actual work. Sure, some businesses may have ludicrous profit margins, but no one is forced to buy their products, not unless they become a monopoly which controls the entire market. That's why we should be working to ensure that doesn't happen instead of fostering it.

But those things ARE happening, there is like 150 mega corporation owning just about everything! am i wrong??

Can you explain to me why slavery is evil? I mean, they get food a place to sleep and live, right?
95% of all people earn only just enough to pay the bills (most dont), pay transport, taxes, food, clothing etc. There isnt much left to do anything, let alone start your own business (which will be bought out and become part of the big monopoly if it ever gets succesfull) The only difference from a slave and a worker, is the worker got more choices and freedom in their sparetime. But if you cut it down to the basics, it is basicly the same.

Capitalism is just like a game of Monopoly, only everything is allready bought and build up by the tptb when you start - please explain to me how that is fair?

originally posted by: FamCore
a reply to: ToLiveIsToDie

You’re describing crony capitalism... capitalism is in essence a system in which innovation and entrepreneurship can be rewarded if there is value added and demand created for products and services. There is incentive to produce and be productive and market forces provide balance within the system (only if it is not corrupted by central planners’ intervention or cronyism, both of which have totally corrupted the system in the West at this point)

We could say the same thing about all the systems, the question is, is the ones who control it good or bad leaders`? And they are usually all bad...

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: ToLiveIsToDie

Free market and free trade *is* capitalism. All capitalism is is the free exchange of goods and services.

If I have a garden and grow a lot of tomatoes, more than I can eat or use for reseed, I can choose to sell or trade some to my neighbors who do not have tomatoes but want or need some. I can either choose to take their money or take items from them in trade for my tomatoes. Perhaps one has hens that lay eggs and we trade that - eggs for tomatoes. But maybe another only has money because the service he or she provides is not one I need, but the money represents that those skills are of worth, so I take the money which I can then exchange with others for goods and services I do need, and I give that neighbor my tomatoes.

Between us, we all work out acceptable rates of exchange: eggs for tomatoes, money for tomatoes.

That is capitalism.

It is also capitalism if I need some help in my garden and I choose to hire on a neighbor for their labor. Again, we work out an acceptable rate of exchange. Perhaps they choose to work for tomatoes or maybe they work for money or it could even be a combination of the two: tomatoes and money. But they are exchanging their labor in this case for my goods and/or money.

Government intervention is in no way capitalist, and it causes distortions in every capitalist market as that market moves farther and farther away from free trade.

Now, we can argue the necessity of a government intervention, but looking at the cramped distorted shell we have today and angrily declaring the capitalism doesn't work is just plain silly.

Your not wrong, but it IS corrupted and controlled by goverment/big business.
You have to pay taxes if you want to sell your product, you have to produce it in certain ways, sell it in certain ways and so on. Every aspect of how you do it is controlled, and if you dont follow the laws, you could end up in jail - just for selling your neighbour some of your tomatoes... You cant even feed a homeless person with your tomatoes, for free! Cause God forbid some store somewhere lost profit on tomatoes it could sell to this poor fellow with NO MONEY....
But sure, the capitalism we got are not evil....