The intrinsic necessity of capitalism

I've written quite a few threads about the benefits of capitalism and the flaws of excessive socialism, but it recently occurred to me that I've never really explained the flaws in capitalism, and why I believe those flaws are preferable to the ones found in socialist systems. One of the primary reasons I have a deep disdain for the fearmongering around Covid-19 is because of the economic damage it is doing to small and mid size businesses, the types of businesses that have always been the heart of western economies. As the smaller businesses fail they are being replaced by massive monopolies which are making record profits.

This shows us the first glaring flaw in capitalism, the formation of monopolies, and the ability for the people who make laws to give unfair advantages to some businesses and not others. However I would point out that heavy socialism or full blown communism is an even more insidious form of centralized monopolistic systems which control every aspect of our life. I would also ask the question, which political ideologies are most responsible for the creation of these monopolies during the pandemic?

Even the most communistic nations on Earth are still forced to partake in international trade when necessary to sustain their way of life, for example China has a massive export industry. The same thing would apply to any friendly alien civilizations we may meet in the future, if we have resources they desire then they might trade with us, but it's very unlikely they will give us an endless supply of free resources out of the kindness of their socialist alien hearts.

At the end of the day that's all capitalism really is, it's the private ownership of resources which enables trade between each party participating in the economy. Money isn't even truly necessary for it to work, the main purpose is to simplify trade and barter. However modern economic systems are highly complicated beasts with advanced currency systems which use debt-based money principles to enable the creation of new currency, which leads to inflation.

Inflation is the main contributor to the devaluation of the dollar, which in turn causes rising prices. Again, one must ask, which political ideology believes in endless money creation as a solution to inequality? Who constantly demands higher taxes to fund big government? Capitalism will obviously fail when the core principles it was designed upon are constantly undermined by things such as excessive inflation and the fostering of monopolies which don't care about product quality.

On top of that we have endless reams of regulations which in theory are supposed to protect consumers, but in practice often make it hard for the upstarts to have any chance of competing with the monopolies. It's very easy to claim that Trump's regulation cuts were some sort of fat cat move to make himself richer, but the reality is he did it to help the economy and it certainly had a positive effect until Covid-19 came along and undid all the progress made by Trump.

Slowly but surely, culture in the western world is shifting to one where it's hard to promote the ideals of capitalism without sounding as if you're some sort of Goldman Sachs shill. More and more people believe that socialist principles will be the solution to all our problems because it seems like a righteous ideology. History and logic tell us a different story. Anyone can point out the flaws in capitalism when they don't understand the intrinsic necessity of capitalism and how much worse the alternative is.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Capitalism is by definition EVIL. It is why we have all the problems we have today, EVERYTHING is about the creation of paper (money), which is worthless. The world is ruined allready, and you people are still cheering on like nothing is wrong...

Your problem is that you only are able to see the 2 or 3 options presented to you, all crap, but you chose one of them anyways... Guess you need a brain to figure something else out...

How about a free market, free trade? Cause iam all for that, but it is INSANE that you would allow tptb to rule and regulate that, which makes it no longer free, and owned and controlled by the people who CAPITALIZE on you!!!

An Economy is a complex system, best left to the natural and dynamical mechanics of that system.
Capitalism occurs, more that is decided upon.
One of Marx's criticism of capitalism on an industrial scale , is that workers loose connection with the products they create, and thus work in it's self becomes unsatisfying/ soul destroying.
I don't think he really offered a solution with a centralized, "artificial" theory aka: communism.
I think the real cause of communism is the first place, was due to monopolies existing in capitalistic economies. This being the result of Feudalism.

My Che Guevara shirt that I bought in a boutique dictates that capitalism is evil.

originally posted by: halfoldman
My Che Guevara shirt that I bought in a boutique dictates that capitalism is evil.

Well, to capitalize on other people is an act of evil, is it not?

Are you for og against slavery? Cause the answer to that question should be the same answer to the question, are you for or against Capitalism.

a reply to: ToLiveIsToDie
It depends on what you define as evil.
perhaps it is a natural evil.

Is to serve a need, with the expectation of reciprocation evil ?
I would say to enforce control of this, is much more evil.

Evil, in a general sense, is defined by what it is not—the opposite or absence of good. It can be an extremely broad concept, although in everyday usage it is often more narrowly used to talk about profound wickedness. It is generally seen as taking multiple possible forms, such as the form of personal moral evil commonly associated with the word, or impersonal natural evil (as in the case of natural disasters or illnesses), and in religious thought, the form of the demonic or supernatural/eternal.[1] While some religions, world views, and philosophies focus on "good versus evil", others deny evil's existence and usefulness in describing people

originally posted by: rom12345
a reply to: ToLiveIsToDie
It depends on what you define as evil.
perhaps it is a natural evil.

Is to serve a need, with the expectation of reciprocation evil ?

Evil, in a general sense, is defined by what it is not—the opposite or absence of good. It can be an extremely broad concept, although in everyday usage it is often more narrowly used to talk about profound wickedness. It is generally seen as taking multiple possible forms, such as the form of personal moral evil commonly associated with the word, or impersonal natural evil (as in the case of natural disasters or illnesses), and in religious thought, the form of the demonic or supernatural/eternal.[1] While some religions, world views, and philosophies focus on "good versus evil", others deny evil's existence and usefulness in describing people

We could argue that evil is just a definition made up by humans, and everything is basicly just 1´s and 0´s

Maybe we should define what it means to capitalize on somebody else?

1.
take the chance to gain advantage from.
take advantage of
profit from
turn to account
make capital out of
make the most of
exploit
benefit from
put to advantage
maximize
strike while the iron is hot
make hay while the sun shines
cash in on
2.
provide (a company) with capital.
"a highly capitalized industry"
finance
fund
underwrite
provide capital for
back
sponsor

Exploit, take advantage from,?? Forget good or evil. Do you like to take advantage of people, to exploit them? yes or no?

The understanding of Good and Evil, is a moral concept. It is was separates us from animals.
I think the concepts of Game Theory, are relevant, but is tedious to assume malicious intent in successful ventures.
Disparity in general is the gradient on which all economics moves.
I don't have something, I want it, then I buy it if i can. Is the guy who makes it exploiting my disadvantage state of not having what I want ? perhaps, thankfully !
Those who truly succeed, act in good faith.
Bad actors will always be there, in any "system"
Free will is a complex concept.
Without a good system of just laws, with the ability to execute them, any imposed economic ideas are dangerous, including capitalism

a reply to: halfoldman
I'd say, strategic socialism.

You're using a manufactured computer or similar device, not so?

From what I recall, Marx never said capitalism is wholly bad.

Actually better than the Feudalsim or tribalism that preceded it.

But yes, we are called upon to surpass it.

Indeed we must surpass it because human labor, and the earth can only give so much.

a reply to: rom12345

You didnt answer the question, do you like taking advantage and exploiting people? Do you like being taken advantage of and exploitet? Cause that is the only to options you got under capitalism.

I don't have something, I want it, then I buy it if i can. Is the guy who makes it exploiting my disadvantage state of not having what I want.

It is not just as simple as that. The guy who made it, is 99.99% of the time not the guy who makes profit from it.
The guy who sells it too you, is 99.99% of the time not guy who makes profit from it.
They are workers, being exploitet by companies who takes the work they make and profit from it, giving them only just enough money to survive, not much else...
On top of that, the companies makes campaigns to brainwash you (the customer) to think you need the stuff youre buying.
The money is also controlled by the companies/banks, so they can pay you millions and basicly just raise the cost of everything so your millions are suddenly worthless...

Yes, the ones behind the scenes, does in fact have malicious intent. We are all forced into this system, and dont want to be evil. But the fact is, that you can either exploit or be exploited - that is your only real choices.

originally posted by: ToLiveIsToDie
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Capitalism is by definition EVIL. It is why we have all the problems we have today, EVERYTHING is about the creation of paper (money), which is worthless. The world is ruined allready, and you people are still cheering on like nothing is wrong...

Your problem is that you only are able to see the 2 or 3 options presented to you, all crap, but you chose one of them anyways... Guess you need a brain to figure something else out...

How about a free market, free trade? Cause iam all for that, but it is INSANE that you would allow tptb to rule and regulate that, which makes it no longer free, and owned and controlled by the people who CAPITALIZE on you!!!

The problem isn't capitalism, it's greed.

Capitalism is essentially a system where everything is traded for a fair price, but when you add greed in to the equation the you end up with a price that greatly exceeds the cost of the materials, ideas and effort that it goes into producing an item or a service.

My quick-fix - when capitalism becomes too icky, simply outsource it.

Well there, it's your crappy capitalism now.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
I've written quite a few threads about the benefits of capitalism and the flaws of excessive socialism,

My own experience is that most Americans don't understand what is or isn't socialism, and they end up describing some kind of wacky version of Communism as described on a 1950s public service announcement.

a reply to: AaarghZombies

The problem isn't capitalism, it's greed.

Capitalism is essentially a system where everything is traded for a fair price, but when you add greed in to the equation the you end up with a price that greatly exceeds the cost of the materials, ideas and effort that it goes into producing an item or a service.

It is also greed.
But youre wrong about Capitalism, things ARENT traded for a fair price, Mafia/Cartels/Goverments controls and regulates it all, so it is all fixed and setup for the, yes very greedy, and very sick people, the ultra rich/bank cartel.
These people are infact worse than heroin users, they got NO CONTROL and they cant help themself, they think they control it all and are filled up with fear to lose that control, they dont even realize they are controlled by their own addiction to power...
The banks control the fake money, and there is NO fairness in any of it.

I would love to see a REAL free market, where people can trade freely without outside control from lowlife gangster addicts. But that is not capitalism!

a reply to: ToLiveIsToDie

Free market and free trade *is* capitalism. All capitalism is is the free exchange of goods and services.

If I have a garden and grow a lot of tomatoes, more than I can eat or use for reseed, I can choose to sell or trade some to my neighbors who do not have tomatoes but want or need some. I can either choose to take their money or take items from them in trade for my tomatoes. Perhaps one has hens that lay eggs and we trade that - eggs for tomatoes. But maybe another only has money because the service he or she provides is not one I need, but the money represents that those skills are of worth, so I take the money which I can then exchange with others for goods and services I do need, and I give that neighbor my tomatoes.

Between us, we all work out acceptable rates of exchange: eggs for tomatoes, money for tomatoes.

That is capitalism.

It is also capitalism if I need some help in my garden and I choose to hire on a neighbor for their labor. Again, we work out an acceptable rate of exchange. Perhaps they choose to work for tomatoes or maybe they work for money or it could even be a combination of the two: tomatoes and money. But they are exchanging their labor in this case for my goods and/or money.

Government intervention is in no way capitalist, and it causes distortions in every capitalist market as that market moves farther and farther away from free trade.

Now, we can argue the necessity of a government intervention, but looking at the cramped distorted shell we have today and angrily declaring the capitalism doesn't work is just plain silly.

If it were true Capitalism, there would no more pavement past the drive way, an if it was, it probably wouldn't belong to you an wad someone else driveway, an not a road an is technically stealing.

Communism might work in a zombie apocalypse, trying to perserve resources with state like powers. "Free" is another word for private, without certain third party, Devils in the details.

a reply to: ToLiveIsToDie

You’re describing crony capitalism... capitalism is in essence a system in which innovation and entrepreneurship can be rewarded if there is value added and demand created for products and services. There is incentive to produce and be productive and market forces provide balance within the system (only if it is not corrupted by central planners’ intervention or cronyism, both of which have totally corrupted the system in the West at this point)

The other thing about capitalism is that it allows people as individuals to uniquely satisfy their personal needs and wants to the greatest satisfaction.

When you go into a grocery store, for example, you see a multitude of varieties of what is essentially one product. Let's talk about milk. You can multiple brands for just milk, but it's split into whole milk, skim milk, 2%. I think we have three different brands just for that. But then you have organic brands re-selling the same varieties ... only organic. The local dairy that sells the same stuff only in old-fashioned glass milk bottles and from well-treated, non-antibiotic cows ... So many niche ways to market those three things.

Then you have half and half, buttermilk, heavy cream, and you have to go into all the different ways those things can be marketed again.

Keep in mind that none of these businesses would be in operation if there weren't enough customers who were choosing to buy their product to keep them in business. That's people making the personal choice that they prefer their milk processed, packaged, priced, what have you, in those certain ways.

Now let's talk about lactose intolerance and the market around supplying milk for those people, from actual milk that's lactose-free to the trendy almond and soy and oat milks. Now you have a whole other set of milks that people are choosing to buy.

This is what capitalism allows for: people who can supply a thing to meet the needs and desires of those of us who want a thing. This is the signal failure of command economies in socialist and communist states. The government controlled market neither cares nor wants to try to satisfy all the demands of the consumer.

a reply to: ToLiveIsToDie

Capitalism is by definition EVIL. It is why we have all the problems we have today, EVERYTHING is about the creation of paper (money), which is worthless. The world is ruined allready, and you people are still cheering on like nothing is wrong...

Private ownership is not evil, it provides individual liberty. And as I also explained, capitalism doesn't require debt-based money to function. I'm starting to believe that this destruction of the economy is intentional so all the suffering can be blamed on the failings of capitalism rather than those who did everything possible to ensure our economy would fail. Capitalism has created some of the most powerful and prosperous nations on Earth, it's only when they succumb to excessive socialism do they fail spectacularly, as we've seen time and time again throughout history.

How about a free market, free trade? Cause iam all for that, but it is INSANE that you would allow tptb to rule and regulate that, which makes it no longer free, and owned and controlled by the people who CAPITALIZE on you!!!

Where exactly did I write that TPTB should control all the capital? What you don't seem to realize is that heavily socialist systems and communist systems are exactly what you fear, all resources are controlled by a highly centralized government and there is no private ownership of resources. The only semi-logical reason for doing such a thing is to reduce overuse of resources by allowing the government to decide when and how resources get used. But I deeply oppose that sort of centralized big gov due to the destruction of freedom and ownership that it entails.

originally posted by: ToLiveIsToDie

Well, to capitalize on other people is an act of evil, is it not?

Explain to me exactly why it's evil for a business to earn a profit on a product they developed? If I create a work of art which took me hundreds of hours, why is it evil to desire some compensation for that work? If I purchase a blank canvas, put some paint on it, and then sell it for more than the cost of the canvas, that isn't evil, it's called making a living by doing actual work. Sure, some businesses may have ludicrous profit margins, but no one is forced to buy their products, not unless they become a monopoly which controls the entire market. That's why we should be working to ensure that doesn't happen instead of fostering it.