I can blow a massive holes in the "must wear masks" montra

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: neutronflux
I never made any claim about rated efficiency.

This is you throwing up another straw man.

How is pointing out two masks that you can buy are not rated for filtering out aerosols which is how covid travels a straw man argument?

That’s like you saying, well. Slaves got paid something. Then I ask what their wage was, and quality of life. Then you say straw man argument.

If you think cloth masks do something, then why don’t they have a ratting concerning how efficient they are concerning aerosols.

Or like saying this rope can lift something. Than I ask what is the safe overhead lifting limit of the rope. Then you say straw man argument.

So. You expect me to use masks with no rating for my safety when I can use a mask that is rated N-95. Or better.

That is literally how ignorant the argument is concerning cloth masks.

Very stupid to use unrated / unevaluated safety equipment when I can use safety rated and verified equipment for a specific hazard. Is that a false statement.

a reply to: daskakik

And. Again.

If I am not sick with covid. Not Sneezing and coughing.

Me wearing a mask protects nobody.

originally posted by: neutronflux
How is pointing out two masks that you can buy are not rated for filtering out aerosols which is how covid travels a straw man argument?

Because it has nothing to do with the point you have been arguing against for days/pages.

They stop "something".

If you think cloth masks do something, then why don’t they have a ratting concerning how efficient they are concerning aerosols.

Probably, because the producers didn't want to spend the money on the testing and decided to just slap a disclaimer on the box. You would have to ask them though.

And. Again.

If I am not sick with covid. Not Sneezing and coughing.

Me wearing a mask protects nobody.

Never said otherwise.

Yet another straw man.

a reply to: daskakik

You

Because it has nothing to do with the point you have been arguing against for days/pages.

Like?

And I posted that cheap masks have no statistical impact on preventing the spread of covid-19.

Do masks actually work? The best studies suggest they don't


www.msn.com...





He goes on to cite several trials conducted over the past several years, each of which found that cloth masks and surgical masks offer very little to no benefit at all. The one trial that specifically tested masks against COVID-19 was a 2020 study in Denmark with 4,800 participants. The researchers found that “1.8 percent of those in the mask group and 2.1 percent of those in the control group became infected with Covid-19 within a month, with this 0.3-point difference not being statistically significant,” Anderson writes.

You

They stop "something".

Do they stop enough to prevent the spread of covid? “ The researchers found that “1.8 percent of those in the mask group and 2.1 percent of those in the control group became infected with Covid-19 within a month, with this 0.3-point difference not being statistically significant,” Anderson writes.”


You

Because the producers didn't want to spend the money on the testing and decided to just slap a disclaimer on the box.

That is usually how you know to stay away from safety gear. If it’s not even worth the effort to see if it meets a standard.

You

Yet another straw man.

How. When there is no evidence that asymptomatic people fuel, or drive the infection rates of covid. What good does it do to put heathy people not coughing, not sneezing in masks in mass to prevent people from spreading covid. You can’t spread it if you don’t have it, so mass mask wearing by healthy people is useless. Unless you wear an N-95 mask that actually protects you from catching covid. The only person you can control to wear proper masks effectively is yourself.

originally posted by: neutronflux
And I posted that cheap masks have no statistical impact on preventing the spread of covid-19.

Since that wasn't my point, it has nothing to do with that. Not that hard to understand.

Do they stop enough to prevent the spread of covid? “ The researchers found that “1.8 percent of those in the mask group and 2.1 percent of those in the control group became infected with Covid-19 within a month, with this 0.3-point difference not being statistically significant,” Anderson writes.”

Again, I wasn't addressing that in my point so it has nothing to do with that.

That is usually how you know to stay away from safety gear. If it’s not even worth the effort to see if it meets a standard.

Still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

How.

Because I never made that argument and a straw man argument is one that refutes an argument that was never made.

a reply to: daskakik

You

Since that wasn't my point, it has nothing to do with that. Not that hard to understand.

That mask do something? Like shooting a m-1 tank with a red rider BB gun.

Then why should I wear a mask? And what mask should I wear.

I choose not to wear a mask because I never had covid. Me wearing a mask doesn’t protect anyone.

If I get sick. I will stay home. Again. No point in wearing a mask if I social distance while sick.

originally posted by: neutronflux
That mask do something? Like shooting a m-1 tank with a red rider BB gun.

Hyperbole, they reduce the amount of viruses entering the environment. Nothing more nothing less.

Then why should I wear a mask? And what mask should I wear.

I choose not to wear a mask because I never had covid. Me wearing a mask doesn’t protect anyone.

If I get sick. I will stay home. Again. No point in wearing a mask if I social distance while sick.

Still a straw man.

a reply to: daskakik

You

Hyperbole, they reduce the amount of viruses entering the environment. Nothing more nothing less.

And they don’t stop it enough to prevent illness.

Still a straw man.

How.

If I physical don’t have covid, and it’s all about stoping the spread by masking the infected, what good is a mask on me doing? That’s not a straw man argument. That is fact.

And what evidence is there that asymptomatic people drive / fuel the spread of covid. So what are masking those individuals preventing?

originally posted by: neutronflux
And they don’t stop it enough to prevent illness.

Not when people poke their nose over the top, fidget with them and pull them off to wipe their lips and nose. That still doesn't mean they are not catching something.

How.

I never made that argument so you bringing it up to refute is called a straw man. Already said that. What don't you understand?

I tend to fall into the camp of whatever.

Generally, I don't wear one. If a store asks nicely, it's a city mandate or there are a lot of masked elderly...I'll put one on. I wear one at work with clients, which is my choice. They don't have to, and often they tell me I don't have to.

Do they work? Meh. I sew for a living and I have to put a disclaimer that the masks are not meant for medical or clinical use, not medical grade or N95 and using them will not prevent the spread of Covid or other diseases. Without it, I could be sued. Having to put this statement on masks I make does not make one confident in their effectiveness. Plus, I can find the guideline for compliance if you're interested and no one that makes the cloth masks can do any of that and many of the paper ones you get from the stores aren't either.

You would be surprised at what these cloth masks makers use for construction of the masks. I've seen furnace filters and vacuum bags cut down, coffee filters (which is actually the best for handmade masks out of them all), all kinds of fabrics, all kinds of things for the nose...in short very few are made of something you don't want on your face. So again, the effectiveness of the "masks" everywhere is somewhat sketchy.

a reply to: daskakik

Can you cite a rating that shows cloth masks are effective enough to capture aerosols to prevent the spread of covid?


If I don’t have covid, how is a mask preventing me from infecting people?

originally posted by: neutronflux
Can you site a rating that shows cloth masks are effective enough to capture aerosols to prevent the spread of covid?

No, but they do capture droplets and droplets with viruses is something even if some/all the aerosols get through.

If I don’t have covid, how is a mask preventing me from infecting people?

Who said it was?

a reply to: daskakik

You

No, but they do capture droplets and droplets with viruses is something even if some/all the aerosols get through.

Then why would I wear safer gear not rated for capturing aerosols to prevent covid if I can buy a rated N-95 mask


You

ho said it was?

Then being healthy, I make the choice of not wearing a mask. If I don’t have covid, wearing a mask doesn’t “protect” people.

originally posted by: neutronflux
Then why would I wear safer gear not rated for capturing aerosols to prevent covid if I can buy a rated N-95 mask

I don't know, why wouldn't you?

Then being health, I make the choice of not wearing a mask. If I don’t have covid, wearing a mask doesn’t “protect” people.

Again, who said it did?

This is just another straw man.

a reply to: daskakik

You

Again, who said it did?

Some examples already provided….

Guidance on the Use of Masks by the General Public IDPh

www.dph.illinois.gov...


When to Wear a Mask

Everyone NOT vaccinated over the age of 2 who can medically tolerate a face covering over their nose and mouth must wear one in a public place when unable to maintain a safe distance (6 feet) from others. Examples include:

Shopping at essential businesses, like grocery stores or pharmacies.
Picking up food from the drive thru or curbside.
Visiting a health care provider,
Traveling on public transportation.
Interacting with customers, clients, or coworkers at essential businesses.
Performing essential services for state and local government agencies, such as laboratory testing, where close interactions with other people are unavoidable.
When feeling sick, coughing, or sneezing.
Those who are staying home and have no close contacts that are infected with COVID-19 do not need a mask while at home. Provided you do so alone or with close, household contacts, other situations that do not require a mask or face covering include running or walking in your neighborhood, mowing the lawn, yard cleanup, gardening, driveway car washing, and other outdoor activities on your property. Nevertheless, we must be intentional about avoiding crowds and social distancing so we can enjoy physical connections later.

This says it all for Illinois

Q: Does my child need to wear a face covering?

A: Yes. If your child is over 2 years age and does not have a medical condition or disability that prevents them from safely wearing a face covering (such as respiratory, heart, or sensory issues), then your child is required to wear a face covering if they are outdoors and unable to maintain a 6-foot distance from others or if they are in an indoor public space such as a store.

www.dph.illinois.gov...

And

www.nytimes.com...

First, Dr. Ferrer, can you explain why it was necessary to put in place the mandate rather than continuing with mask guidance? You told my colleague a couple of weeks ago that you didn’t intend to “return to lockdown or more disruptive mandates.” What changed?

I guess I would start by saying we don’t consider wearing masks a disruptive mandate at all. Some people might be inconvenienced by it, but it doesn’t disrupt customary business processes.

We were hopeful that more people would mask indoors with the recommendation. With the Delta variant, the situation has changed. I don’t think we’d see a surge in cases without the Delta variant.

All along, this department has been very clear we’re recommending masking indoors because of what we’ve been seeing in other countries with this variant.

Now that we know more, it’s time to mandate masks indoors. This is in line with how we’ve been approaching mitigating the devastating effects of this virus with the evidence at hand.

a reply to: daskakik

What’s the science behind masks mandates for children?

a reply to: daskakik

These States Have COVID-19 Mask Mandates
By Kaia Hubbard Contributor • Aug. 13, 2021, at 10:29 a.m.

These are the U.S. states and territories with mask mandates:

www.usnews.com...

American Samoa | California | Connecticut | District of Columbia | Guam | Hawaii | Illinois | Louisiana | Nevada | New Mexico | New York | Oregon | Puerto Rico | Rhode Island | U.S. Virgin Islands | Virginia | Washington

a reply to: neutronflux
None of that says people without covid wearing masks are protecting people.

It is just a blanket policy.

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: neutronflux
None of that says people without covid wearing masks are protecting people.

It is just a blanket policy.

Ok. Where in the quoted policies did it say that masks do something, and do it effectively.

You say masks do something?

This was part of the opening post.

now am i saying in SPECIFIC SITUATIONS with SPECIFIC MASKS they cant help protect.. No
but as general (ex) going to your local wal mart wearing your cute "bling bling" cloth mask or putting on your surgical mask for the 5 time with it sitting in your car between uses as being MEDICALLY certified protection? NO

Sounds like you agree with the opeing post.

originally posted by: neutronflux
Ok. Where in the quoted policies did it say that masks do something, and do it effectively.

They don't, but that wasn't what you asked. You asked:

If I don’t have covid, how is a mask preventing me from infecting people?

The answer was "None of that says people without covid wearing masks are protecting people" so, obviously, they won't say that.

Sounds like you agree with the opeing post.

Yes, and to that I replied:

Will any of this help me avoid the mask policy at my grocery store?

If not, who cares.

A bit later I replied to your posts:

So, then masks aren’t effective at actual stopping the spread.

But some how reduce the spread they never did prevented?

and also:

Cheap masks that don’t seal don’t prevent anything.

with:

Exactly, you properly wearing a mask in an industrial setting saves you from whatever fumes/particles it is meant for, it doesn't "stop" the guy who doesn't follow protocol correctly from being exposed.

Your argument seems to be, well Gary got sick so the masks must not work, even if that person kept pulling it off every couple minutes cause he felt he couldn't breathe.

and

Wouldn't a mask that doesn't seal prevent airborne droplets from traveling as far as if no mask were worn? Isn't that something?

The former shows my point about even an efficient mask not working if protocol is lax and the later my very simple point about masks that don't seal still doing something.

And, of course, my point, somewhere in there, to the OP that a disclaimer on a box doesn't provide proof of what it can or can't do because it is just a legal move to avoid trouble.