UK Elite Want Lockdown !

a reply to: Oldcarpy2
I have no idea how it works.

there is not going to be a "lock down"
sorry.
they found out it does not work.

instead, you can go . . . anywhere . . . anywhere that tickles your fancy

but once you get there, they won't let you in without a vaccine and a mask.
you see? it is not a lock down. lock downs don't work.

it is a "lock out" big difference
no vaccine and your boss locks the door and won't let you in
no vaccine and the grocer locks the door and won't let you in

but see if an illegal immigrant gets vaccinated, he can take your job, even at any level of the government including Prime Minister

a reply to: sraven

it is a "lock out" big difference
no vaccine and your boss locks the door and won't let you in
no vaccine and the grocer locks the door and won't let you in

So....exactly who benefits from this and how?

originally posted by: TheLead
a reply to: AaarghZombies

No science fiction movie just something i'm pondering based on other species adaptations. When something in nature spawns it's a reaction to something that has gotten out of hand. Nature has a chaotic order in that it's existence isn't planned out, it exist and then expands as much as it can until it incounters resistance. If it has little resistance or fewer varaibles of resistance it will have a better chance of overcoming them. I am suggesting that it may adapt easier to common biological ancestors than they would being spread out amongst populations quickly encountering immune responses essentially burning itself out. It would make sense in how they generally become more transmissible and less deadly as they interact with the populatoin at large.

That's the plot of literally hundreds of science fiction movies or TV shows. Mostly as a reaction to human pollution or radioactive waste. That's NOT how evolution happens.

a reply to: Freeborn

did say that they'd prevaricated, obfuscated, changed their minds and generally made a pigs ear of things.

Not in the slightest, the elite came out with a very clear plan, then the liberals and the media kicked up a huge great fuss about it, so the elites gave in to public pressure and changed their plans.

What you're looking at is what happens when the exact OPPOSITE of a totalitarian regime run by elites. You're seeing government that is is to weak, not one that is controlling.

Whilst shutting the economy down - out of necessity - they also engaged in some of the most blatant and amoral profiteering that generated obscene amounts of wealth for their friends, family, backers and masters.

The PUBLIC demanded FAST ACTION.

Normally government tendering is a long and laborious process that takes months at best. You need multiple bidders all jumping through multiple hoops to engage in a best value system that's designed to secure a supply chain for 5-10 years.

What happened this time was that they bypassed the normal procedures and took bids directly form companiesindividuals who had previous government experience. Groups that were already in the system.

This cut months off of procurement and brought in much needed supplies.

Did this mean that people who were known to government got money, yes, yes it did, but the alternative would have many thousands of deaths due to a lack of PPE. Criticize all that you want, this was still better than the alternative.

There's always people protesting....but nowhere near in the numbers one would have expected years ago.

Maybe because A) There is a pandemic and large gatherings are good super spreader events and B) A lot of the people who would normally protest actually supported the government stance.

Are they?
And if they are I'm afraid to say that Unions are pretty much an irrelevance nowadays.

Given what happened recently when the train franchises tried to change the system so that drivers used CCTV to check the doors were clear on trains, rather than having a separate person doing it, I'd beg to differ.

Yet they have and they are.

Which proves what I'm saying.

Seriously, who the # do you think you are talking to?
I absolutely guarantee you that you wouldn't have the #ing balls to talk to me in such an arrogant, condescending manner in person!

Why, because you'd punch me?

Real mature.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: sraven

it is a "lock out" big difference
no vaccine and your boss locks the door and won't let you in
no vaccine and the grocer locks the door and won't let you in

So....exactly who benefits from this and how?

it is psychology.
they tried lock down. stay at home.
didn't work because most people are extroverts. they can't and won't stay home.
they gotta have their peeps.

but lock out is completely different.
you can go anywhere you want.
all you need is this tiny little pin prick.
it is your passport to freedom.

so where does the resistance come from?
introverts make up 25% of the population.
what percentage are un-vaxed?
yep, about 25%

while extroverts are busy infecting and re-infecting each other

a reply to: AaarghZombies

What you're looking at is what happens when the exact OPPOSITE of a totalitarian regime run by elites. You're seeing government that is is to weak, not one that is controlling.

Not so much the government - who I firmly believe are both amoral and incompetent - but the people behind the scenes pulling the strings are incredibly devious, manipulative and opportunist.

The PUBLIC demanded FAST ACTION.

The people only demanded what MSM led them to believe.....and MSM was fed by the government propaganda machine.

The procurement of PPE was a clear example of opportunist money making - the opportunity arose and it was exploited to the full.

We'll never know how many lives were saved by the quick purchase of PPE or any of the governments lockdown policies.
Experts will discuss, debate and disagree for decades ensuring continued funding etc.

Millions upon millions were wasted on PPE that was not fit-for-purpose.
Who signed off on those contracts and who profited?

Maybe because A) There is a pandemic and large gatherings are good super spreader events and B) A lot of the people who would normally protest actually supported the government stance.

You said there were ' people marching on the streets of London in the thousands demanding that the government unlock'.....now you are saying large numbers support the governments lockdown policy.
You said people were 'more restive' and 'less trusting of authority'?
Which is it?

I would concede that we are seeing an increasing polarisation of society but that's a different discussion.

Given what happened recently when the train franchises tried to change the system so that drivers used CCTV to check the doors were clear on trains, rather than having a separate person doing it, I'd beg to differ.

One relatively minor success.....after how many failures?

Fir the record; I've been a big Union man all my working life - I kept up Union membership despite at one point being in a relatively senior management position.
I've been actively involved in Union activities, including The Miners Strike in '84 and several local issues.

But alas Unions are more or less irrelevant today - that's not an endorsement of how things are just an acknowledgement.

Why, because you'd punch me?

Possibly.
I'm not easily offended but I don't like people talking down to me, or anyone else for that matter, nor do I like condescending and patronising wankers.

I am very much a product of my time and the environment I was brought up in.
I have no time for woke hypersensitivities and I passionately believe that manners cost nothing.

People talk to me like I'm stupid or a piece of # I will fire back in the only way I know.
I absolutely refuse to apologise for that.
Obviously I try my best to reign in my natural reactions....occasionally I fail.

Real mature.

I've never once alleged to be mature....just getting old.

originally posted by: sraven

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: sraven

it is a "lock out" big difference
no vaccine and your boss locks the door and won't let you in
no vaccine and the grocer locks the door and won't let you in

So....exactly who benefits from this and how?

it is psychology.
they tried lock down. stay at home.
didn't work because most people are extroverts. they can't and won't stay home.
they gotta have their peeps.

but lock out is completely different.
you can go anywhere you want.
all you need is this tiny little pin prick.
it is your passport to freedom.

so where does the resistance come from?
introverts make up 25% of the population.
what percentage are un-vaxed?
yep, about 25%

while extroverts are busy infecting and re-infecting each other

If we're talking about the UK then you're wrong on most counts.

The lockdown in the UK was extremely effective and very widely observed because people in the UK are more apt to obey the rules than people in the US, and because the lockdown wasn't as politisized as it was in the US so people didn't rebel so much simply because they didn't like who was telling them to lock down.

In the UK most rule breakers weren't extroverts. They were religious conservatives holding weddings or other ceremonies, and minorities who felt dethatched from wider British life who put their needs above those of the wider community.

Vaccine passports in the UK are also being demanded by everyone BUT the government. The government is where much of the resistance comes from.

a reply to: AaarghZombies
No, vaccine passports in the UK are not being demanded by everyone but the government..
Stop spreading misinformation.

a reply to: Freeborn

What you're doing is you're taking things from the US and are trying to apply them to the UK.

Not so much the government - who I firmly believe are both amoral and incompetent - but the people behind the scenes pulling the strings are incredibly devious, manipulative and opportunist.

This is the tory party we're talking about. The people behind the tory party are ... the tory party. In the UK the wealthy elite don't need to corrupt the government, they get elected on to it.

Millions upon millions were wasted on PPE that was not fit-for-purpose.
Who signed off on those contracts and who profited?

A lot less was wasted than you think. PPE comes in multiple varieties. Most of the PPE in question didn't meat the level 3 requirement which meant that it couldn't be used in some environments, but it did meet the level 1 or 2 requirements, so rather than throwing it away it was simply re distributed to somewhere that it was useful.

The procurement of PPE was a clear example of opportunist money making - the opportunity arose and it was exploited to the full.

This is called capitalism. The alternative is socialism.

You said there were ' people marching on the streets of London in the thousands demanding that the government unlock'.....now you are saying large numbers support the governments lockdown policy.

Both are true, because different people are doing different things.

Thousands ARE marching on the streets, and are being allowed to do so. Which disputes your claim that protests were being supressed.

These people are in a minority, as a greater number of people support the lockdown.

One relatively minor success.....after how many failures?

You're probably just not reading the right newspapers to hear about the others.

But alas Unions are more or less irrelevant today - that's not an endorsement of how things are just an acknowledgement.

Past generations of union activists campaigned vigorously to protect the rights of their members, and their struggle was recognized in law. If unions are less relevant today it's because people have much more legal protection so the abuses that used to happen no longer happen. Particularly in areas such as health and safety.

I'm not easily offended but I don't like people talking down to me,

You're practically quoting from the US media and are talking about the Tories as if they were the Republicans. You accused Boris Johnson of trying to use a lockdown grab power, despite the biggest criticism of Johnson being that he did the exact opposite.

So yes, I'm going to correct you on that.

a reply to: AaarghZombies
Why are people marching in the UK?
Are they demanding covid passports?

a reply to: AaarghZombies

What you're doing is you're taking things from the US and are trying to apply them to the UK.

What you are doing is talking absolute and utter bollocks.
I'm doing nothing of the sort.
Like what?

This is the tory party we're talking about. The people behind the tory party are ... the tory party. In the UK the wealthy elite don't need to corrupt the government, they get elected on to it.

As amoral as they are they still can't act with total impunity. There are checks and regulations that at least attempt to provide some sort of oversight etc.
The current administration is trying to circumvent those wherever possible.

A lot less was wasted than you think. PPE comes in multiple varieties. Most of the PPE in question didn't meat the level 3 requirement which meant that it couldn't be used in some environments, but it did meet the level 1 or 2 requirements, so rather than throwing it away it was simply re distributed to somewhere that it was useful.

But paid well above the amount normally paid for PPE for those requirements.

This is called capitalism. The alternative is socialism.

An incredibly simplistic viewpoint.

Thousands ARE marching on the streets, and are being allowed to do so. Which disputes your claim that protests were being supressed.

Where did I say they were being 'suppressed'?

I said that not as many people were protesting as one would have thought.
The promotion of the governments pro-lockdown message by MSM was incredibly effective and most opposition to that viewpoint was demonised and even suppressed.

These people are in a minority, as a greater number of people support the lockdown.

Rightly or wrongly that was as a result of the governments use of MSM in pushing its message

You're probably just not reading the right newspapers to hear about the others.

Care to elaborate?

Past generations of union activists campaigned vigorously to protect the rights of their members, and their struggle was recognized in law. If unions are less relevant today it's because people have much more legal protection so the abuses that used to happen no longer happen. Particularly in areas such as health and safety.

I'd agree that Health and Safety regulations have improved for the better and much of that is due to Union activism.
But I can honestly say that workers Rights are worse now than they ever have been during my adult life.
Sadly I've had to watch them be eroded over the years....I find it quite bizarre that you think workers Rights are more protected now than what they were previously.

You're practically quoting from the US media and are talking about the Tories as if they were the Republicans.

How and where?

I don't watch or read 'US media'.

You accused Boris Johnson of trying to use a lockdown grab power,....

No I didn't.
Where?

I did accuse The Tories of trying to use the pandemic as an opportunity to further certain policies that previously would have been extremely unpopular.
How you could equate that to a 'power grab' is beyond me.

.... despite the biggest criticism of Johnson being that he did the exact opposite.

Yes, in my opinion he dithered, prevaricated and at times seemed unsure of what to do - it certainly wasn't inspirational leadership.
I'm not quite sure if that was by design, ineptitude or a mixture of both.

But I don't think its stopped them from trying to exploit and manipulate things.