They made you believe God is perfect...

xxxxxx

a reply to: Raggedyman

Everytime a skeptic criticizes religion, believers say the skeptic just doesn't understand. Or how faith is needed to understand.

Really just a tired and weak excuse to shield from criticism. Which I understand because religion doesn't make a whole lot of sense and trying to defend it is much harder than being a critic.

a reply to: Gothmog

Yeah, me neither. When I used to ask my old man questions about stuff like that he always answered

''Beez u got bugs I R everybody be.''

Don't know where he got that from. Somewhere I suppose out of the slang jargon of the twenties and thirties. The closest I could find to it in a google search was ''Bees! You Got Bugs? Course I Are. Everybody Do! ''

I agree, the Plataypus defies all bibical logic, and everyone keeps forgetting Gods first mistake, the making of Satan.

And then you got the Gays, that keep popping up like weeds, testing said devout parents. Like it was the book of job, testing their faith with the end result, that they won't be having grand kids.

originally posted by: Panartisis
a reply to: Gothmog

Ha, Ditto

Doesn't work that way .
Cause I called "dibs"

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: Gothmog

Yeah, me neither. When I used to ask my old man questions about stuff like that he always answered

''Beez u got bugs I R everybody be.''

Don't know where he got that from. Somewhere I suppose out of the slang jargon of the twenties and thirties. The closest I could find to it in a google search was ''Bees! You Got Bugs? Course I Are. Everybody Do! ''

See , I thought that into existence with one word : "be"

On the serious side...
Our finals in 9th grade Psychology was to write a term paper .
I had always been fascinated by the quote "Cogito, ergo sum" and had always expanded on that one line as a mental exercise .
Hmm , sounds good.
"I think therefore everything is" just didn't sound right .
"I think therefore you are"
From that point on , it was on .
20 pages , front and back , in no time whatsoever.
Afterwards . I thought "how stupid"
Teacher graded it as 100 and added 40 bonus points for the most original paper in any of her classes ever.
I still have it .

a reply to: St0rD

Furthermore, the Almighty holds all things together then evil must be a part of him too. Where do you think it comes from in the first place if not from the creator itselfs?

I read somewhere that someone cannot truly be called good if they never possessed the capacity for evil. Logically you can never really know if someone is a hero until you have seen them at their darkest and watched them figuratively crawl back to the light side after staring their own personal evil in the face.

a reply to: TzarChasm


I think one who is wholey good would appreciate evil as thy know they both need each other.

a reply to: sine.nomine
Pm'd you 👌

originally posted by: Panartisis
a reply to: TzarChasm


I think one who is wholey good would appreciate evil as thy know they both need each other.

It is said in scripture that darkness was first. Darkness was given a name but nowhere was it described as being made like light was. Darkness is not a creation, it's a primordial element that precedes "the word" and all that happened after the very first star was born.

a reply to: St0rD

Considering he made us in his own image what does it tells you about his character? Humans are full of doubts, do mistakes all the time and feed evil continuously. In his image, huh?

God is not perfect in your mind because you do not have a perfect mind to recognize perfection or to judge the matter of imperfection Now that doesn't make you dumb because that applies to everyone living or dead. We all put the horse before the cart and yell giddyup and then wonder why the horse is so dumb.

Ezra the scribe wrote a few articles and one of those articles in 4 Ezra teaches us that God did not make anyone except Adam. He [God] did not make you. That is why you and I have a mom and pop. That is not to say that God and His Word did not make Adam but that was the only human God and His Word ever formed from His creation. Every human besides Adam had a human mom and human pop. Not leaving Jesus out of the picture but that can become quite a mind twister. So in lite of what Ezra teaches, God had nothing to do with my mom and pop in the bedroom.

a reply to: Gothmog

That's interesting Goth. It took me more to leap from the I think, so me, to '' you as well''. That paper must have been quite a treatise for a freshman if your prof when so gaga over it.

As a late teen I underwent that Cartesian dilemma but resolved it much like I was later to find had Descartes .
That got me , me, but it didn't get me ''you'' . If you catch my drift here.

It was in that same period of time, maybe a year or so later that I sat down with my brother one night and got into our first adult (ha) philosophical discussion. The ''how do I know that when I leave this room that you still exist discussion''.

Well anyway, after an hour or so of deep conversation on these ancient conundrums I had to take a leak. So I got up to leave our bedroom and head down the hall. I was gripped with fear. Here I had just had my very first real conversation with my brother in our who lives and the thought that he might not exist beyond my own illusions was almost overwhelming, I balked at the door, turned around and told him I hoped he would not disappear while I was gone, and so I went off to the loo. Freeking.

Minutes later I came back up the hall shaking with hope that my fears would not be realized. As I entered our room, there was my 17 year old brother, standing completely naked on top of our dresser posed like the statue ''Winged Victory''..

I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that in my wildest imaginations I could not have created that scene. No way. That pushed me over that existential chasm from I to I and thou.

originally posted by: St0rD

Well,

plenty of good questions there. I take this as a challenge and will do my best to describe my own idea of truth. You might take me lightly and say to yourself
"Who the fook is that guy anyway"
but you don't need to have have a degree in everything to actually formulate a strong solid opinion about different aspects of our reality. Life is the biggest teacher you can have.

Why did God created humanity?
My best guess would be that before the world of matter was created, God and all creation held together as a whole in absolute balance. But then, just like in our life we take things for granted and only realize the importance of what we have already until we lose it, I'd argue there was a point when the Source decided to come out of this "boring" balance and experience something new. Matter was created and all things we know today in order to experience creation in a new perspective and learning a lot in the process about ourselves and the true nature of reality.

Freewill is clearly a thing. I think it is an intrigate part of God's character and the system of laws he believes in. A lot of people blame God because he let evil be injected into all creation with all the suffering that came with it when he could have probably just stop it from happening in the first place. Now it's something I also struggle to understand from time to time when I see the amount of evil that actually exist in this world... but then I ask myself
What kind of God could pretend he is the truth and the way, that his laws are holy and that he honors freewill but when # doesn't go as he intended would simply magically reset or erase what he doesn't like? Nha, as disturbing as it is, we still have to go through this process and learn the hard way.

Now about God's true intention, I'm 100% confident he is a being of love and deserve that we give him a chance for real this time. He offered us paradise but we chose the wicked path instead. We believed the lie of the devil and we still pay the price today. It's so hard to get a true relationship with God and truly believe in him and that he exists. Somehow there is always that little doubt behind the back of our head. Even more than that, the Lord gives us plenty of chances to experience true happiness and plenty of opportunities to turn back from our wicked ways (which ultimately lead us nowhere but to suffering) and yet the temptation of sin is so strong we always seem to choose to believe the lie and make the sames mistakes over and over again. Ironicallly, if only we chose the path of rightoueness and give God a chance we would have all we always dreamed of but the path of the Lord requires serious sacrifice most people are not ready for.

So this bring us to your next question-
Is hell real and for eternity?
I've thought about this for a long time and I've come to the conclusion that the Devil is very real. Which means that hell most likely is too. Very disturbing stuff when you really start to think about it and consider the implications behind it. It seems like we are all being tested and been given all the chances in the world to repent from our sins. God is an incredibly patient being, it's unreal. But he is not a fool and he's got a limit. They call it jugdment day, the end of times, ragnarok, etc whatever you call it EVERY civilizations talk about it. People should have fear about God's wrath because all the day his patience and mercy has come to terms, the wrath that will be unleashed will be absolutely terrifying especially considering the amount of suffering and bull# mankind displayed on Earth.
The thing I have a hard time to believe is that hell is eternal damnation and is forever and ever. I feel like it goes against God's character to cut himself for a whole part of his creation. Now, he has really no choice to punish the wicked because thanks to karma, it's the only real justice that exist in our world. However, I suspect there might be some opportunities for redemption to even the Devil himself. Thing is though the way I see it the only way God would forgive Satan is if he would repent to all of his evil deeds and actually have to go through the same suffering he inflicted upon creation then justice would have been served and forgiveness possible. But yeah, I don't think he's willing to do that loll

I think what you've written above is very well reasoned and quite lovely as well!

As to your OP - it seems to me that when the Bible says that God is "perfect", it means He is 'perfectly' Himself...

...many people would say that God is 'unchanging', but I don't agree -
- this would mean that He would never change His mind about anything, yet in the Bible when God decides to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham argues with God, who agrees to change His mind 'if ten innocent people are found within the cities.'
(See Genesis 18 verses 22-33)

Unfortunately no innocents were found, so the cities get destroyed, but the story illustrates that God is willing to listen to human beings and can change His mind if there's good reason.


To me it absolutely makes sense that God has been learning from His experiences as our 'Parent'...

Just like with most people who have a lot of kids - by the time the 3rd or 4th one is born, the parents have learned so much they will say, 'man we didn't know what we were doing back when we had that first baby!'

Anyway, thanks for the great thread!
(for what it's worth, I think it was only the title that maybe threw people off a bit, it kinda threw me off, but I'M GLAD I took a chance and 'clicked in' here!)

a reply to: St0rD

No. They didn't write or say that He is perfect. In fact, he admits his own faults after he drowns the Earth. "They" said he was omnipotent, with a side order of "all-seeing". I believe God can see all, but does he really care? I think not. I believe that collective prayer can tap into the energies of the universe and make changes.

I don't think perfection exists. Why? Because it calls upon an even greater deity to judge it. Where does it end? Is God merely the marketing manager for this sector of the universe? What would perfection look like? To know everything that has been and is and will ever be and to choose that which is the most perfect for all creatures? What a Goddamn boring existance that would be, right? You would have to sacrifice free will. I wouldn't chose that . I think we are given free will, and therefore perfection isn't possible.

originally posted by: Panartisis
a reply to: sine.nomine
Mate honestly you have no idea, I almost cried there reading that, I know this all too well, I'm really struggling to get into action, I have a deadline for the 29th and it's really important but I lack worry, you know the fear you need to make deadlines.

What kind meditations you got for increasing focus and providing a good boot up the arse to kickstar you into action. I would sell a time share on my soul to get kicked into action.

But why ?

Maybe you are already absolutely perfect ?

Supposedly 'God' made man in his own image. Men/women/children make mistakes. Also, in the Old Testament, 'God' is quite angry and vindictive a bit. Therefore ...not seeing a perfect 'God'. Unless, being mistake prone is part of being 'perfect'.

originally posted by: St0rD
... but is he for real?

Considering he made us in his own image what does it tells you about his character?
Humans are full of doubts, do mistakes all the time and feed evil continuously.
In his image, huh?

God is perfect in his imperfections. That sounds more right.
From my own experience, God seems to have gone through the same challenges that we are facing right now and even battled against doubts when his infinite mind suddenly was confronted to this powerful question-
"Where do I come from?"
It's already disturbing as it is for us humans to actually ask ourselves this but then now imagine the implications for a being that has lived forever and ever.
Mind blown.


Furthermore, the Almighty holds all things together then evil must be a part of him too. Where do you think it comes from in the first place if not from the creator itselfs? The difference between God and his creation is probably the fact that he ultimately overcame the temptations of evil and learn to transform it in something positive. So did he make mistakes at some point?
A good example of where God could have made a mistake is in the garden of Eden. He tried to hide evil from all of us and how does that ended? Probably did it with good intent but it backfired hard. He could have just introduced us to the fact life is not only about rainbows and sunshine. That evil exist whether we like it or not and the horrors behind it can't be ignored. It can be contained I guess but he did the same mistake we do with our childrens. We make them believe in fairy tales and try to hide the #ed up reality we live in for as long as we can. Still, they'll have to face it one day or another.

So what God did was to warn us about the consequences of knowing evil but didn't give us full context as to why it's such a painful realization. Instead, he said:

"Eat from all of trees in the garden but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.'"

Clearly I can understand why he would try to protect his creation from the thought of evil, shielding us from its true nature and making us live in a fantasy land. It's why I think God can make mistakes too and he learns from it just like you and me. It's the whole purpose of life.
And anyway, how could he proclaimed himself as being perfect if he is not even opened to the possibility of admitting his own shortcomings. It's not like life was all fun and joy, right? There's room for improvement.

So maybe the creator is more relatable than we like to pretend and that would be great news!

As someone who does believe in God, I find your thinking very relatable to my own. For many years, I have enjoyed pondering things like this. I believe He is perfect and everything that has ever happened He already knew about. What I want to ask Him is why? If you knew how the whole plan was going to go (from beginning until the end) then why did you created anything? He created the angels, Satan (one of the highest angels) rebelled and was cast out of Heaven - thus it all began. Then man was created...why?

What I have always thought might be a possibility is that God perhaps came from a race of beings and maybe they all died out for some reason? He got lonely being the only one and just wanted friends, someone to share all His creation with. So He created the angels but all they could do was worship Him, but that was easy because they KNEW He was real. Makes me think of a very wealthy person...they have lots of friends but how many are REALLY their friend and how may are only their friend because they are rich and there might be lots of benefits because of the friendship.

This is why the message of Jesus is so important. It provides an opportunity to believe in God, and choose to spend eternity with God, rather than anyone or anything else. Also, I think that is why He forbid Adam and Eve from eating the fruit. He knew once they did, they would realize "sin" and then sin would cause a separation between God and man and He didn't want it to happen. All He could ever do to try and have the type of friend He wanted was to give free will to mankind, and let them choose Him or not. Maybe crazy thoughts on my part, but this is how I have always thought about it.

I feel like God did not make a mistake as noted in your post for the Garden of Eden.
God gave humans free will to make that decision, and unfortunately the wrong decision was made and we now live with the consequences.
a reply to: St0rD

originally posted by: Kaiju666
Supposedly 'God' made man in his own image. Men/women/children make mistakes. Also, in the Old Testament, 'God' is quite angry and vindictive a bit. Therefore ...not seeing a perfect 'God'. Unless, being mistake prone is part of being 'perfect'.

Yet, how many people complained when God didn’t stop Hitler, Stalin, Isis the Taliban
You want no God but complain when He wipes out the Amalekites because of their evil

Not making any sense
Justice is perfection

originally posted by: Panartisis
a reply to: sine.nomine
Pm'd you 👌

Pm'd. Back. Hope it helps, the inquiry was a bit vague for a sure or concise answer.