Justice or Mercy?

a reply to: zosimov

Just because I pray for God to forgive everyone else in the world every night doesn't mean He will. In the end, that's between a person and God. I have no power to make people realize that they've done wrong things in this world and feel remorse and a desire for repentance for them.

I can pray and pray and pray that God leads them to it, but I have no power to make it happen.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Justice is when the reaction to our action is like that. Bad actions bring bad reactions. Someone already brought up eye for an eye. Of course, often it is a system or laws that metes out the reactions or else we live in chaos.

Mercy is when the reaction is lessened or lightened from what it should have been. Chaos can result from that too when the proposed mercy erodes an established rule of law. You have only to look at San Fran and other west coast cities where the DAs are simply choosing not to prosecute the laws to see how people behave in the face of unearned and undeserved mercy.

a reply to: ketsuko

Fully agree that God is not beholden to any of our wills. This OP is not meant to be about universal (God's) mercy or justice, only what we have within our own realm--our own treatment of one another.

Good points above regarding mercy/justice; mercy shown is not only sometimes a cruelty to those affected by a past crime, but also occasionally an endangerment to others, why I added my opinion that those who deliberately cause harm/suffering ought to face consequences and (to the best of society's ability) be restrained from doing further harm.

Mercy can be an empty act when done in the wrong way/for the wrong reasons; another interesting nuance to consider.

a reply to: zosimov

There is no justice. In fact the two stories you related, are about as close to justice as it gets. Maybe even karma. I think people forget that things like justice, or mercy or karma. Are all human created concepts. They do not exist in and of themselves. In fact? They dont exist period, outside of the codes or rules or the thoughts and inside the heads of those who hold them.

I mean? Your two stories? You can say its justice. But more like revenge. In fact? Isnt justice just revenge? And the whole law and code of law was just put in place so that way others dont have to bother with it. But like the saying goes?

Those who life by the sword, die by the sword.

The same can be applied to anything else. What goes around? Comes around. And justice and revenge? Are pretty much one and the same, and the difference is that one was codified as law, so that it does not go round and round forever.

Justice was just invented to capitulate and control the revenge factor. But its the same hat, just a different color.

And mercy? I dont know. I once heard tell, that mercy like good intentions, is just another brick paved in the road to hell. But given the variants and peoples and multitudes. Its not applicable to but to specific instances. I mean sure mercy, turn the other cheek. And things may be alright.

Or? Show mercy instead of justice or revenge, for a crime or sin or you name. And there likely to just embolden whoever did it, to do it again. And that is much more likely to happen then anything else with people. So in effect? Your just helping in keeping the madness going on and on, by turning the other cheek.

One thing is for sure. No good deed goes unpunished, and that for me has hit home more then once. In the end? All these concepts just exist in peoples heads. Nothing more, nothing less. Its just a mechanize to which a bunch of hairless monkey can get along without killing each other or throwing poop every other day. |

The universe or even if there is a god or whatever? Basically I dont think there is any higher power sitting around making sure everybody gets there comeupins. Life is more random, and things come out of left field all the time. Which is why? Things like ethics, and justice, or mercy was invented.

Not because they work? But to make the randomness of life and the chaos of the universe? More sane, and understood.
And so? In reality? It all just exists in peoples heads, that all. And I have seen just as much if not more instances of were no good deed goes unpunished, then that good deeds lead to some sort of reward or lead to anything.

In fact? Its just as likely that bad deeds will be rewarded then that good deeds will. Thats because there just concepts, and dont exist but in the actions and thoughts of people. There is no universal law that says you do good, and good things will happen, or vice versa.


Thats just because its all just make believe for the most part. A way to keep society from going bonkers.

No good deed goes unpunished. The universe? Does not care about peoples believes.


But in this day and age. Evolved as we are. Poop throwing is frowned upon. And so, the verbal, literal, and proverbial poop flinging has to evolved to new and higher more refined methods. We call those methods? Civilized life. And justice and revenge, are pretty hard to distinguish between the two.

a reply to: zosimov

Let me know if you read the book again, and what you think!

A very strange thing happened:

I got to the end of the book, and it was as if I hadn't read it at all. The second part had cancelled out my thoughts and emotions experienced while reading the first.

I have a hazy recollection of the developing protagonist, her real life and experiences. But now it's as a partly remembered dream that is rapidly disappearing.

...
It's gone now.

I don't know if that was the intent of the author or not. I don't know if my experience of reading the story is typical or not, but there it is.

Let's just say that the first part was more engaging. I was not only a reader, but was also injecting my own arguments into the interactions. Arguing along with Orual.

The only take away that I am left with is that no person ever really knows the thoughts, emotions, or motivations of another, no matter how much they talk together. Love, enmity, selfishness, desire; they all just flow in and out of each other.
------
Did I read this story wrong?

a reply to: pthena

Now, after some reviewing of what little stuck in my mind:

The story is not about Istra(Psyche) or the god(Eros) at all. They are bit players.

It is about Orual becoming the embodiment of Ungit (similar to but not equivalent with Aphrodite).

The other main characters are Fox (Lysias) and Bardia. Those two men were used up by Orual. Like living sacrifices. And yet, their sacrifice of self was not coerced. They were being themselves, acting according to their own nature.

It's plainly stated in Tao Te Ching chapter 5.

Heaven and Earth are not kind.
They regard all things as offerings.
The sage is not kind.
He regards all people as offerings.

Orual has become(or discovered herself to be) the sage, a reflection of Ungit.

a reply to: zosimov
IMO mercy only truly works when one party is truly repentant and the other forgives.

Forgiveness is hard because it means you have to let go. Mercy, in my mind, is forgiveness either without or before justice. Sometimes justice is never done, not possible and sometimes commuting justice isn't in the power of the one wronged. But forgiveness is important for both parties.

Mercy.. Justice.. Forgiveness..

I think they can all be whittled down to the act of a genuine apology. A genuine apology is the recognition of "wrongdoing," repentance of that wrongdoing, and a True effort to change behavior going forward.

It can be for little things or big things, but I do firmly believe that an apology should only be given with the aforementioned pillars in mind.

How that apology is then received is its own thing. I believe that items like mercy and justice dont necessarily need to enter the picture.. even if it appears they are present. Its more a matter of what does the most Good; defined as that which facilitates the symbiotic growth of all involved systems. Something that can be measured not only by the individual systems, but also by how much they potentiate other systems.

In the (excellent) example of rioters being set free without charges, this can be sold as "mercy" or "forgiveness." However, there is certainly no repentance. In fact, the situation itself states that the only "wrongdoing" was perpetrated by those who were doing the initial arrests.

We can be marketed the idea that that situation is merciful.. but it absolutely is not even if we do not include possible nefarious intentions. Not only is there no apology or repentance, its a course of action that directly impedes the growth of many connected systems (people, ideologies, courts, etc.). This is frequently even stated as an outright goal.

Thanks for all the really interesting replies and the discussion regarding mercy/justice/forgiveness.

I think many of us are in agreement in that justice (to make right a wrong) often evades us here or is impossible to achieve. I can see a lot of agreement regarding the need of repentance as a condition of mercy, and the discussion in that regard was really interesting and persuasive. I'd like to hear thoughts on the following video--to me, this act of forgiveness was the impetus for repentance rather than the other way around

I know there's a lot of corny music, and no guarantee that any modicum of repentance truly reached this killer's heart.. yet...
In my view, any opportunity to bring another to repentance is still worthy of pursuit.
I think important context to the video is that this mercy given is in conjunction with the penalty of law, rather than allowing people to run riot (figure of speech, but definitely in reference to serdgiam and ketsuko's comments), removing a person's ability to harm others is also key.

If justice cannot be had, I still wonder if mercy is truly our next best option.

And another good point I from these posts also is the indispensible need for contrition and putting oneself at the mercy of the wronged.

Thanks for another great discussion, ATS!

a reply to: pthena

I really enjoyed reading your response to the book (also--your speed reading skills are impressive!) but am suffering the strange blank mind syndrome (at work steadily since 5 am here) so don't have anything--yet--in reply.
Loved your reference to Tao Te Ching in reference to Orwal/Ungit/the sage.
That's about all I can do for now lol
Sounds like a really singular experience reading the two parts though, and I hope you enjoyed the revisit!

a reply to: zosimov

(also--your speed reading skills are impressive!)

If you want to call 11 hours to read 147 pages speed reading.
I've known a couple of people who could have read it in less than 90 minutes.

Sounds like a really singular experience reading the two parts though,

So atypical then. Maybe what you call "blank mind syndrome". Perhaps I shouldn't have tried to read the whole thing in one sitting.

Allow yourself some depressurization time.

a reply to: zosimov

I'd like to hear thoughts on the following video--to me, this act of forgiveness was the impetus for repentance rather than the other way around

I don't consider the shedding of a tear to be repentance. I cry watching movies, not because of repentance.

Look at the setting: The guy is standing behind a very pulpit looking lectern, wearing a tie and suspenders. Looks like a preacher man.

Ridgway already had, before most of the murders, a habit of crying during sermons.

He became religious during his second marriage, proselytizing door-to-door, reading the Bible aloud at work and at home, and insisting that his wife follow the strict teachings of their pastor.[8] Ridgway would also frequently cry after sermons or reading the Bible.

wikipedia: Gary Ridgway
No. That's not repentance.

a reply to: pthena

Well it's certainly a long shot, but I do believe the memory of hearing this testimony will stand out from all others and might work some shred of understanding into the man where nothing else might. And also believe that, from the relative's perspective, that act and even the response (empty or not) was also a part of his own healing process.

But you're probably right lol.

Now for that decompression time

a reply to: pthena

Now I'm going to rant a bit, sorry.

Who in the hell does that guy think he is to say that Ridgway is forgiven? Did he ask the victims and the bereaved? Only victims can forgive.

Is he speaking for God? How is God the victim?

--------
I've been trying to avoid writing this anecdote, but can't pull it off because I'm in a rage:

I was making pancakes one morning when she came over and put her hand on my shoulder.
"I feel like God is punishing me for all the bad things I did to you."

What an out of left field thing! She was all weepy. There was no evidence that God was doing anything to her. Then I got a little upset.
"That's not possible," I said "I never gave God any permission to do any such thing."

To see her face brighten up so quickly, and the tears vanish! "Really?" she asked.

"Yes. Really." I replied.

As far as my interpretation goes, she was just acting; melodrama. There didn't seem to be any actual remorse. I guess she may have felt very much relieved knowing that I wasn't actively asking God to do horrible things to her. Seriously, there was no evidence that God was doing horrible things.

I see where your trying to come from, but to be able to reach inside, an to summon whatever remnants of said humanity left is not a common feat. I'm all for second chances an what not, but it does get to a point. Kind of like Batman an the Joker, if Batman killed him(the Courts by now at least), lot more life's would of been saved, an made exceptions to his no rule.

Understandable to an extent, like what would be the main cause or driving factor behind such acts. Which is kind of what I think the whole, loving your enemies schtick, is to understand them. Not only that, it the epitome of psyhcological warfare, like being inside their heads.

a reply to: pthena

Who knows but could be the offering was on his own behalf; for the hole left in his life. That pain I'd imagine is daily and extends beyond physical and temporal bounds.
Your sentiment definitely reminds me again of Brothers Karamazov; Dostoevsky is of the same mind regarding forgiveness.

Referring back to "Forgive them Father; they know not what they do," it is certainly more profound that Jesus was asking for forgiveness on behalf of of his own murderers, not another's.

I am definitely getting some sharper irons here from this discussion and am sorry for evoking such a strong emotional response and bad memories.

a reply to: zosimov

am sorry for evoking such a strong emotional response and bad memories.

Now that you mention bad memories, maybe I was a bit hasty earlier saying I don't get the "forgive and forget". With time, some things can be forgotten.

There's no real point in stressing over things that can't be changed.

Edit to add:
So I looked up Robert Rule. Here's an article from Seattle PI. Green River victim's family finds peace in forgiveness: 16-year-old daughter was killed by Ridgway in early 1980s

So Janie hit the streets at age 14. Here's some facts about her parents:

The two are open about the tumultuous family life that ended with their daughter dropping out of school and leaving a series of homes for the streets.

After the couple married for the first time, they lived in the Yesler Terrace housing project in Seattle. He was 26, and she was 21, and they had Janie, then divorced before she was 3.
...
After the divorce, Janie lived with her father for a time. But he married and divorced three more times, and the little girl moved in with an aunt and an uncle. Both parents fought back and forth about her custody.

Meanwhile, Linda Rule married and divorced two other men, both abusive, and had two other children. When she was 13, Janie moved in with her mother but left after watching repeated abuse of her mother by her stepfather, Linda Rule said.
...
The girl went back to the home of her aunt and uncle but landed on the streets when she was 14. She kept in touch with her family off and on. She disappeared around Sept. 26, 1982.

a reply to: pthena

I read the article you posted and about how Rule

would go out and find her street associates and give what limited money he had to them to give to Janie, he said. "I hated it," he said of his daughter's life. "A child should be in a home. I went to the authorities and said, 'Please do something -- put her in the youth center.' They told me she was an emancipated female. She wanted to be her own person."

And how he had custody of his daughter but kept entering failing and tumultuous relationships and see a pitiable figure, not a monster who has no right to mourn the death of his child.
I also found a link to
www.theforgivenessproject.com...
Formed by a mom of a murdered child whose life was changed by watching Rule’s impact statement.
From her link:

When we finally learned what had happened to Andi, I wanted to die with her. There is no way to explain the loss of a child, other than to say that dying by slow torture would be better. I have never experienced such great pain emotionally or physically. Unless you have lost a child there is no way for me to explain it in a way you would understand.

It’s good to know that mercy can extend beyond the criminal to whom it is offered.

a reply to: zosimov

And how he had custody of his daughter but kept entering failing and tumultuous relationships and see a pitiable figure, not a monster who has no right to mourn the death of his child.

When my daughter was 10 years old she said to me, "Just quit worrying about what she's doing. I'm a kid. You have to take care of me."

The kid's needs gotta come first. He lost his kid when he put his own desires ahead of his daughters needs.

So I downloaded a Kindle version of The Brothers Karamazov. I'm not going to try to read it in one sitting.

It’s good to know that mercy can extend beyond the criminal to whom it is offered.

I've read the comments on the youtube. I read Robert's obituary and all the comments there. Robert's an angel in heaven now, just waiting for Gary Ridgway to show up so they can pal around.

I even read one article by a "once saved always saved" character who was emphasizing how wonderful it was that an already born again Christian can murder a bunch of women and girls and still not lose out on salvation.

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Sorry. I'm gonna read some Dostoevsky now.

a reply to: pthena

I’m glad you listened to your little girl and made the right choices for her.



I saw maybe some of those comments but didn’t pay them much regard. The story I linked to was more appealing to me, lol, guess we will be able to find whatever response we’re looking for to reinforce our thoughts on the matter

Hope you enjoy the (long, long) read and have a good day